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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wish we could get some decent advice on whether to vote to Brexit or Bremain

239 replies

lougle · 15/06/2016 17:12

I am an intelligent woman. I am well educated. I can't for the life of me work out what is truth and what is fiction. I have no idea what is right for this country.

I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction. But I don't have the first clue which way to vote. I'm a nurse and I love my NHS, if that makes a difference to how I should vote.

OP posts:
Capricorn76 · 16/06/2016 12:14

They are somewhat similar to the football hooligans who probably believe they are being patriotic but don't seem to care that they'll get their team kicked out of the competition.

Millyonthefloss2 · 16/06/2016 12:15

Some good advice from Gisela Stuart, Labour MP for Birmingham Edgbaston. She knows what she is talking about I think.

"It has not always been comfortable for me to see the direction Europe has taken—the arc from the recovery and optimism of my parents’ generation to my disillusionment today.

Now, I look forward to the kind of country I would like my grandchildren to grow up in.

Whatever happens, I hope they can live in an open, free and prosperous Britain at ease with its neighbours and with the choices it has made.

For years, British governments have tried to be pragmatic about Europe. They have taken the view that the day of decision could be kicked down the road, that we could be at the heart of Europe without being part of the state-building project.

But once the euro was created it became impossible to remain in both camps.

Now the time has come to decide what is in the best long-term interests of the country.

If the EU were an energy supplier or a bank, you would long ago have stopped believing its hype, you would have seen it was hopeless value for money and never listened to its customers.

You would just move your account.

It is time for Britain to recognise that Brussels has had enough chances. And that the only safe option is to Vote Leave."

WaspsandBeesSting · 16/06/2016 12:16

They are somewhat similar to the football hooligans who probably believe they are being patriotic but don't seem to care that they'll get their team kicked out of the competition.

Comparing those that may vote leave to football hooligans now.

Any lower you'd like to sink?

DrawingLife · 16/06/2016 12:23

The Bank analogy Gisela Stuart uses is bollocks: we're not customers of the EU, we're founding members with a strong voice, Eurozone or not. And to the list of people who'd be happy for the UK to leave you can add Putin and Trump...

But OP, you were asking for independent voices, not spin from either side:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07hjy4z
I think Tim Harford's "More or Less" special series is great for finding out the facts about some of the numbers bandied about by both sides. He does not give advice or come down on one side, but his points are very helpful.

homebythesea · 16/06/2016 12:25

I have voted (postal vote) Leave for the following reasons

  1. The EU as currently set up is anti democratic, unaccountable and arguably corrupt.
  1. There is no appetite for reform, as demonstrated by DC's inability to "renegotiate" UK's membership terms
  1. The Eurozone is economically unsustainable. It's collapse will affect all EU members whether they have the Euro or not
  1. I'm concerned with the security implications of the entrance of Turkey
  1. Yes there will be economic consequences but even the Treasury says it will be a shallow effect with a quick recovery
  1. Not too long ago DC was saying he was relaxed about leaving so all tales of doom etc are simply not credible
  1. Someone like Dennis Skinner would not come out for Leave if there was one iota of danger to workers' rights or public services, again rendering all those threats not credible
LaurieMarlow · 16/06/2016 12:27

If the EU were an energy supplier or a bank, you would long ago have stopped believing its hype, you would have seen it was hopeless value for money and never listened to its customers. You would just move your account

But there is no other account. That's the key point she's missing. There's no equivalent to the EU that the UK can just rock up to.

To further her analogy, a Brexit result would be the UK, rubbing some sticks together to keep the lights on, wondering what the hell it's going to do next.

Millyonthefloss2 · 16/06/2016 12:30

DrawingLife The Bank analogy Gisela Stuart uses is bollocks

Do you think what she says here is bollocks too:

'Voting to remain on 23 June is not just about staying in the EU as it is today, but also about staying in as it will look in 2025 or 2035. Immigration is placing the NHS under huge strain and undermining patient safety, and our ability to control the NHS could be further undermined by the way the pressure that could be made worse by the TTIP agreement the EU is negotiating with the US.'

unlucky83 · 16/06/2016 12:42

maid that wasn't your argument - the argument in that link is that the UK economy will suffer post brexit so that there will be less available money for scientific funding. Which might become the case in the short term -but we really don't exactly what is going to happen.
And the article was written with a very pro-EU bias -by members of a group called 'Scientists for EU'...
The point about allowing freedom of movement/immigration I think is a non-starter as most labs have people working in them from all over the world and the HR depts are well able to deal with the paperwork involved. Having said that less immigration in universities may not be a bad thing - in the UK we train up post docs for 7 yrs and unless they become group leaders after a 9yr career become unemployable - too expensive. What a waste of money - they have to go on retrain to do something else. True for males and females but I live near a couple of universities and we have plenty of female doctorates around who are unemployed/SAHMs as they couldn't juggle both a career in the lab with early years unless they had a partner who had a less restrictive job/were already well established. They really don't know what their future holds... A shake up of that system - how funding is allocated and success judged by publication rate IMO is vastly overdue too - I don't think it contributes to 'good' science and a lot of money is wasted to further individuals careers...

DrawingLife · 16/06/2016 12:50

Milly, we've both made up our minds and I doubt anything we throw at each other will change that - I have too much on in RL to get into the argument now (same with the many most of homebythesea's points, starting with the myth that the EU is antidemocratic...). Not meant to be snarky, I love debates but I simply haven't got the time. Just quickly re. the GS quote:

The UK can stop Turkey (or any other state) joining by a simple veto. Immigrants massively contribute to the NHS. If the EU, which is similar in economic output to the US, can't negotiate a favourable trade deal with the U.S., what kind of deal do you think the UK would get on its own? Don't forget that Boris & co. have been strong supporters of TTIP in the past ("What's not to like" was BJ's verdict before), and many of them (Farage, Boris, Gove, the campaign strategist etc.) are in favour of privatising the NHS. Leave are a disparate bunch, not a government, and will not be bound to any of the promises they are making now.

JassyRadlett · 16/06/2016 12:57

I have hopes that if we vote to remain, people might actually get more engaged in what goes on in the EU and how laws are made in Brussels, and participate more actively in EU democracy.

homebythesea · 16/06/2016 13:03

drawinglife it's anti democratic because we do not elect the people who make the legislation. The parliament, that we do vote for, does not have much sway. And when were you last consulted by your MEP on policy?

Jessy a nice thought but the whole point is that we can't get involved with EU democracy because it is not democratic!

MaidOfStars · 16/06/2016 13:14

Having said that less immigration in universities may not be a bad thing - in the UK we train up post docs for 7 yrs and unless they become group leaders after a 9yr career become unemployable - too expensive....

How does that link in to "immigration"? PhD candidates (and higher) are employed wholly on skill set. If you want to argue to reduce science funding, streamline the system, fine. But there is no argument for reducing immigration within that premise.

The fewer postdocs, fewer professors, would still represent the melting pot of countries within their ranks.

WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeG0es · 16/06/2016 13:16

You could argue we're a lot less democratic than the EU with the House of Lords and our vast unelected civil service.

MaidOfStars · 16/06/2016 13:17

our ability to control the NHS could be further undermined by the way the pressure that could be made worse by the TTIP agreement the EU is negotiating with the US
Alone, we'll be signed up to TTIP before you can blink.

Donatellalymanmoss · 16/06/2016 13:19

Leave are a disparate bunch, not a government, and will not be bound to any of the promises they are making now.

This is such an important point!!

MaidOfStars · 16/06/2016 13:20

it's anti democratic because we do not elect the people who make the legislation
That applies to all levels of government, from your local council to the EU.

The parliament, that we do vote for, does not have much sway
Except to elect, on our behalf, those legislators.

And when were you last consulted by your MEP on policy?
What's the turnout for European elections? 35%! The majority didn't give a shit about EU democracy enough to go and vote directly for a representative in the EU parliament.

Lasvegas · 16/06/2016 13:22

I read a book called Europe In or Out all you need to know by David charter. It was from amazon on e format but I guess also available in hard copy.The bureaucratic waste led me to vote out. I learned so much from this book.

Donatellalymanmoss · 16/06/2016 13:24

Also for those saying they object to having an anti-democratic EU. Our Head of State is chosen by birthright and our first past the post parliamentary voting system is skewed towards the two largest parties and does not create a parliament that accurately reflects how the votes across the country are actually spread.

This referendum is just preventing us from seeing the route cause of UKs problems, which are actually much closer to home.

JassyRadlett · 16/06/2016 13:38

Jessy a nice thought but the whole point is that we can't get involved with EU democracy because it is not democratic!

What, apart from the directly-elected Parliament, the Council made up of democratically-elected leaders of member states and their ministers, and the Commission led by people appointed by the democratically-elected leaders and ratified by the directly-elected Parliament?

RedToothBrush · 16/06/2016 13:41

I want to vote, and vote with conviction.

I think if you are Leave its probably more clear cut.

If you are Remain I think it tends to be an on-balance argument.

Which I think is making it hard for some people as they aren't in the later camp, but they are struggling with the on-balance argument with lots of confusing information. They are not 'YAY GO EU!!! WWWWOOOO!'. Its difficult to muster that excitement. In true I think its disingenuous to suggest you can be that excited about the EU.

The EU is flawed. Its a big monster. But there are big friendly monsters and big horrible monsters.

Leave is not an argument based on 'facts'. Its more of an 'outlook' based more on belief. Its stupid to try and look for them. There is no plan. There is no argument really apart from the propaganda slogan of 'Take Back Control' which in fairness is a very strong and positive one, especially when it sits next to the shitty weakness of the Remain camp's propaganda. What does it actually mean in reality though?

The truth: Not a lot. Its left deliberately open to interpretation, as that means people attach their own meaning to it - and therefore convictions and beliefs. Its to empower the person reading it. But there is little real substance behind it.

'To take back control', in life requires a detailed clear vision and strategy. Yet its nowhere to be seen, and Leave are quite happy to do this as it offers them the opportunity to promise the world (or glittering generalities as the technique is know). What how many times the phrase 'Take Back Control' is going to be repeated in the next week. Its an interesting game for Question Time Viewing!

Then there's the reality. Article 50, which is the mechanism to leave the EU, is heavily weighed against anyone leaving (its therefore not anti-UK). It puts us in a difficult position to make good on the promises of taking control, especially since there are French and German elections in the same period. Us leaving is likely to be met with hostility, even at cost to themselves, to try and prevent others leaving and getting similar 'concessions'. We will, instead of being in control, be the political football of the Germans and French. Who have no obligation to agree anything. If after two years there is no agreement, then we get thrown back into poor terms.

Then you have to consider the implications of politics domestically. I don't think there is any consensus on what the UK actually wants. Its very vague. Before we even get to the negotiation table we will have to settle this. I can't see there being much will to do this or much agreement.

Oh, and as for taking control. We'll get control of Sangatte alright. Only in Folkestone.

I might feel differently if there was a plan either within the Brexit camp or the Remain camp. Instead we have lots of competing and contradictory arguments.

If you are looking for facts over outlook, then I would go Remain. Lots of facts (of varying quality and bias and propaganda) but there are facts. Whether you choose to trust them - and their sources - is another matter. There is a definite split along these lines.

I think Remain are doing a shit campaign. They don't get it. They haven't been honest, and they have tried to scare people instead of just going with what the EU is.

On balance the EU offer us security and stability. Boring as hell but undervalued. If the EU did go tits up, then we would be sucked in regardless. Better to do it with others, in those circumstances. Its more likely to be controlled then. Movement of people is going to be a problem in or out due to a global population that is growing. We are better dealing with those problems on an international basis with people we are on good terms with rather than have just pissed off. Likewise, trying to get back tax from international corporation and tax havens - otherwise it will encourage an every man for himself mentality in the finance world which we have been chipping away at, albeit slowly. Then there's works and human rights. Deregulation will chip away at these. Its not a good thing. It seems to be fair game to talk about the EU in twenty or thirty years. I think its fair game to talk about workers and human rights in twenty or thirty years too.

Then there's this: The referendum looks set to be cut along age lines with the young wanting to stay in. If Brexit win, we loose a generation to political engagement as they feel they have not been listened to. The implications of this are wide ranging. It means few will take up the much needed call to get involved themselves locally. That means they don't get head. It means career politicians will dominate even more. I fear this perhaps more than anything.

Brexit is about trying to draw lines of division to me. Its about trying to other, and trying to use the word 'I' a lot. Rather than looking at what shared grievances we have and what we are all pissed off at, and using that to try and find solutions.

Even in terms of immigration, the them and us thing in terms of integration, requires both sides of the fence to reach out to each other. That's those who identify as White British making a positive effort as much as those coming over here and taking on British culture. Instead Brexit is driving a massive wedge in that. I'm scared some of the strength of negative feeling, so why would anyone from a none white British background feel better about it? It only adds more fuel to the fire.

Finally, there's Scotland and NI and the issues of their sovereignty and safety. I grew up fearing NI terrorism. I don't want to go back to that. I don't want to loose Scotland. I didn't want them to go last year. I still don't. I don't see how England is stronger without either NI and Scotland. I don't want to see friends who are Irish and NI and work across the border area have to make huge decisions.

I am PROUD to be British. I am starting the resent the fact that, I can not be British European and still be proud. Cultures do not disappear with the redrawing of lines on maps. Cultures flourish with trade and the bonds that brings. What makes someone proud to be Welsh? They have managed to maintain and indeed extend that in recent years, whilst still being part of the union. Ditto, Scotland and NI.

I have friends who are European and I see them as every bit as equal. The Little England nationalism is tiresome, and inaccurate anyway. I reject it.

Anyway, MY decision, is not anyone else's decision. But that's where I am. That's why I'm frustrated. I do have certain concerns but they are not going to get fixed in the way people think. Nor is it a decision from being scared.

It boils down to this to me. You can't just overthrown the government - domestic or the EU - with two fingers up, unless you have a credible alternative waiting in the wings with a credible alternative to fill the void.

Where is that? Where is that really?

I just hear a loud echoing silence to that question

wasonthelist · 16/06/2016 13:45

You could argue we're a lot less democratic than the EU with the House of Lords and our vast unelected civil service.

Indeed you could, but that would be pointless and irrelevant since the referendum isn't about Lords or Civil Service reform.

LaurieMarlow · 16/06/2016 14:18

RedToothBrush your post is (by quite a long way) the most sense I've heard spoken on this monumental mess since Brexit was first mooted.

BlackeyedSusan · 16/06/2016 14:22

what annoys me is the leavers saying the stayers are scaremongering while the leavers are doing the very same thing.

the whole thing is annoying. Finding Radio four is helping with their answering questions from listeners. listening to the campaigners is useless.

SoThisIsSummer · 16/06/2016 14:50

I have hopes that if we vote to remain, people might actually get more engaged in what goes on in the EU and how laws are made in Brussels, and participate more actively in EU democracy

Wow, you don't think far more relevant people have not already been trying to do this, including Dave himself? This is why Andrea Leadsom has decided to leave . An incredibly bright lady who worked in the city before becoming MP.

"For me, I spent a lot the last Parliament setting up and running the" Fresh Start project" with a group of other MPs. Our hope was that if analysed how the EU affects the UK we could propose serious reforms to make it work better for all members. I thought we would stay in a profoundly different EU. And it was only when the PM came back with clear evidence that the EU is unreformable, that I decided we are far better off by leaving. (Most of my Fresh Start colleagues concluded the same.)"

Even in terms of immigration, the them and us thing in terms of integration, requires both sides of the fence to reach out to each other. That's those who identify as White British making a positive effort as much as those coming over here and taking on British culture. Instead Brexit is driving a massive wedge in that. I'm scared some of the strength of negative feeling, so why would anyone from a none white British background feel better about it? It only adds more fuel to the fire

? Confused

Did you realize than many minorities see the EU as a racist organization that keeps out, other nations, and as the EU is made up of white nations, its therefore been called the White fortress?

" Race Equality activists say they are surprised at the extent of anger about the EU driven by resentment over large scale migration from eastern Europe and support for neo nazi groups on the continent.

Two factors driving anti EU feeling:

  1. Is a long standing feeling that the EU project is has been anti black - we;ve seen the emergence of some far right groups, some of them are pretty nasty, Added to that is

  2. the many black people feel they are competing for jobs with EE.

The two things come together in feeling the "EU" is really not right for us.

Mr Woolley, said he was taken aback by on line responses to an article he wrote advocating to stay in one comment read,

" Mainland Europe is far and away more racist and viciously so than the people of this Island" and " the eu is a white male club" another wrote of the devastating effect of mass immigration from eastern Europe on the hope of Ethnic Minorities in the UK"

From the Times ^

homebythesea · 16/06/2016 14:51

The U.K. Civil service do not propose legislation- they draft and administer it. A very big difference

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