To wish we could get some decent advice on whether to vote to Brexit or Bremain

[lougle]

I am an intelligent woman. I am well educated. I can't for the life of me work out what is truth and what is fiction. I have no idea what is right for this country.

I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction. But I don't have the first clue which way to vote. I'm a nurse and I love my NHS, if that makes a difference to how I should vote.

milly they are desperately trying to negotiate on movement of people with the EU and of course the EU is not working with them....

Non eu migration is tightly controlled, have to have good job, money in the bank, and non eu migration is far lower down work scale, many un skilled labourours, farm pickers etc. If they dramatically cut non eu migration they have to cut skills and people we need in the UK, to make room for people who we have no idea what they are going to offer us....veg picking, car washing....
I'm struggling to understand your point, TBH. It seems full of contradictions.

It also doesn't tally with research outlined here:
Link
European migrants to the UK are not a drain on Britain’s finances and pay out far more in taxes than they receive in state benefits, a new study has revealed. The research by two leading migration economists at University College also reveals that Britain is uniquely successful, even more than Germany, in attracting the most highly skilled and highly educated migrants in Europe.

EU migrants aren't all veg pickers and car washers, FFS. I work in academia and half the workforce are EU.

i dont want a say in how my neighbours paints his house, thats up to him
Until he paints it hot pink, plants towering leylandii and fucks over your house price.

free trade agreements with other countries we currently do not have agreements with
Countries with governments advising us to stay in the EU. Why would they do that if they are so anxious to have a free trade agreement with us?

We have other resources of action to deal with that Maid.

And the price to pay of having to endlessly have an open door to any of my neighbours is too high a price to pay for small trivialities. I wouldn't care about my house very much anyway, if I couldn't enjoy it in peace without all my neighbours piling in all the time.

EU migrants aren't all veg pickers and car washers, FFS. I work in academia and half the workforce are EU

We can't control who is and who isn't. We have hundreds of thousands of car washers, veg pickers and people in low skilled jobs here. As steve hilton says who I quoted up thread :

" Stop importing unlimited numbers of Hungarian waiters who may be charming but who don't add much to the economy ( I'm Hungarian I can say that) start welcoming scientists and entrepreneurs from Russia, china and India who we are forced to exclude because we have to put EU immigration first, We should be putting the British Economy first. "

Voting leave & providing for controlled immigration is the balanced approach. All EU migrants who are already in jobs shouldn't have a problem applying for relevant visas to allow them to continue in UK. The problem is that of uncontrolled immigration. If we have control on the borders then immigration is great for progress!

Rupert Murdoch's very keen on
Brexit.

Mervyn King has NOT backed Brexit. He's been very careful not to announce which way he's voting.

www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/05/30/mervyn-king-brexit-and-remain-campaigns-make-wildly-exaggerated/

As for the democratic deficit - we have the world's only unelected second chamber - with bishops in it!
The EU has the Parliament (elected), the Commission (chosen by national Governments) and the Council of Ministers (each elected in their own country).

We have other resources of action to deal with that Maid
Like what? How do you stop him devaluing your house price. He's doing it out of spite, to teach you a lesson. What is your response?

Stop importing unlimited numbers of Hungarian waiters who may be charming but who don't add much to the economy
WTF? What does that mean, "don't add much to the economy"? It is widely recognised that EU migrants are net contributors to the economy.

start welcoming scientists and entrepreneurs from Russia, china and India
We do. And from France, Germany, Spain, etc.

As for Turkey they've been trying to join since 1962. It ain't going to happen.

SoThisIsSummer you quoted: "One final thought - there will be an annual £10bn independence dividend if we leave. That's the money we pay to the EU currently that we don't get back in any shape or form. It could be used to boost our NHS, to reduce VAT on fuel bills, to provide greater support for international trade. There are lots of choices and it's a vast sum of money"

As I already pointed out, that is NOT a vast sum of money. It would NOT boost our NHS because that £10bn represents just 0.3% of the UK total expenditure and we spend almost 15% of our total expenditure on the NHS. Even if you gave the NHS all of that £10bn, that's like giving the guys that paint the Forth Bridge an extra tin of paint. Yes, it's something extra but the difference it will make is next to nothing.

Using the argument that saving that £10bn will make a huge difference to this country is simply UNTRUE and anyone who says so is lying to us.

We haven't built enough houses for decades, we have screwed over our working people for decades - gains from increased productivity have gone to top 1%.

There are a lot of reasons for ordinary working people in the UK to be angry and this looks like a great opportunity to give THEM a bloody nose. But Brexit will do nothing to fix those problems.

Stop importing unlimited numbers of Hungarian waiters who may be charming but who don't add much to the economy
And furthermore, how fucking offensive to UK-born waiting staff (presumably bundled in with cleaners, manufacturing workers, and so on).

They contribute nothing to the economy?

Using the argument that saving that £10bn will make a huge difference to this country is simply UNTRUE and anyone who says so is lying to us
Agree. At least 10% of it, perhaps more, would be needed simply to plug the gap in scientific funding.

Non eu migration is tightly controlled, have to have good job, money in the bank, and non eu migration is far lower down work scale, many un skilled labourours, farm pickers etc. If they dramatically cut non eu migration they have to cut skills and people we need in the UK, to make room for people who we have no idea what they are going to offer us....veg picking, car washing...

How arrogant this sounds! I am an EU immigrant (British citizen also and I get to vote) and I don't work in a car wash or cherry picking on a farm though it is fair to say that those immigrants are also needed, there are teachers from Eastern Europe educated that work cherry picking and helping the farming industry because British citizens don't want those jobs!

Back to the skilled migrants, EU citizens are educated too you know, I work with Polish, Romanians, French, Portugeese people and also non EU immigrants and I never seen a difference in our education, culture yes, but not education.

I hate when people label eu immigrants, and let's be honest, we are talking about Eastern European migrants here, not about Farage's German wife, as non skilled. You may find that lots of those waiters, cherry pickets, car washers are actually well educated but chose to do a low skilled job for a better pay.

Add to the parroted Leave calls that we get 10 billion back that even the Leave campaign conservatively predict a drop in domestic income of around 60 billion.

Brilliant strategy guys - 50 billion down.....

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/britain-flirts-with-economic-insanity/2016/05/01/bb8d7a4a-0e1f-11e6-bfa1-4efa856caf2a_story.html#Brexit

This is stuff about the EU contributions
fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
I've said there are lots of opposing figures but no-one has argued that we don't make a net cash contribution to the EU. I used the 2/3 back (which I said was the most optimistic remain figures I'd seen) according to those figures linked we get around a third back...
So maid that '10 billion' - or in the figures attached 8.5billion- is after we have had money back. So we won't need to spend 10% of it on 'plugging the research gap'...as that will (from the figures attached) come out of the 4 billion we already get back...
Anything 'funded by the EU' we are already paying for...plus more.
The argument about money really is over the 'added value' - that other advantages from being in the EU are worth more to us than the cash we spend...
I'm not convinced - and also like I said I think we need to grasp this opportunity to get out -I don't think we will be asked again in the foreseeable future and the EU does need serious reforms -which I really don't think are going to happen if we remain....

Good informative article, Albert.

We get more scientific funding from the EU than we contribute (if you proportionally calculate contributions for various funding streams). It generates cash in the UK for science. There is a funding gap.

The argument about money really is over the 'added value' - that other advantages from being in the EU are worth more to us than the cash we spend...
OK, let's go with this. How do you think the pound/FTSE/pension schemes will fare after Brexit - how much of the £10bn will we need to support it? How much of it will be used to incentivise global/EU businesses to stay in the UK? How much will we need to support lost jobs?

And we're going to prop up a failing NHS (do you honestly believe there's a political will for that in the UK?). And attract other international businesses? And invest aborad to support free trade relations?

It's not much money. It really isn't.

Maid - how can there be? We put more cash in the EU that we get out....no one argues (to my knowledge) with that...
You know the thing about statistics - you can make them say anything...
The best eg I've seen recently is something used to say that a shorter school day will if anything be beneficial to pupils reading ability ... the data presented could be extrapolated to if they spent zero time reading and learning to read they would be better readers ...nonsense obviously -but the statistics as presented supported that...

The Brexit arguments are unbelievably weak. None of them stand up to any scrutiny at all. And the only half intelligent public figure standing up to defend them is Boris Johnson and he's pretty open that's because it fits his personal agenda.

And the rest of the world watches open mouthed as Britain prepares to commit economic suicide.

Unaffordable house prices are in part driven by property investment from outside the Russian & the Far East, what is leaving the EU going to do to stop that?

I believe a lot of the Brexiters are nihilists who don't care if the county goes down as they have nothing to lose. Pretty scary.

Maid - how can there be? We put more cash in the EU that we get out
Science funding post-Brexit