To wish we could get some decent advice on whether to vote to Brexit or Bremain

[lougle]

I am an intelligent woman. I am well educated. I can't for the life of me work out what is truth and what is fiction. I have no idea what is right for this country.

I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction. But I don't have the first clue which way to vote. I'm a nurse and I love my NHS, if that makes a difference to how I should vote.

I am surprised Gisela Stuart is a Brexiter

The point that the Bremainers are missing is that a large number of people who want Brexit do still want some sort of European Union, they just believe that the current set up is so rigid, inefficient, corrupt, sclerotic, wasteful, self-serving, over-bureaucratic, undemocratic etc etc that it can not and will not ever carry out the reforms which, almost everyone agrees, are necessary.

Gisela Stuart worked at the very heart of the EU, Blair sent her to Brussels to work on the drafting of the EU Constitution (which was subsequently rejected by the French and Danish people in referendums). She emerged from that experience totally disillusioned, and convinced that the only option is to break and re-make the whole thing.

AA Gill uses the divorce analogy, with an added spin:

We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”

still assuming the 0.3% argument is correct - and I haven't looked into it. Assuming your personal total expenditure is £20k pa - that would mean you would be happy to give £600 to your neighbours because it is only 0.3% of your expenditure? after all its not enough to buy a new car or pay for the family summer holiday on its own?

And thinking about it giving them the £600 also gives them the right to tell you how you manage your affairs - which shops you can use, how you should have your garden, what colour to paint your house, what car you should drive?
Does that sound like such a good deal?

I've recently had to care for my dad in hospital for 5 months. In 5 months he was attended to by Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Polish, French doctors, nurses and care workers. And that is only the European workers. There were Indian, Sudanese, Somalian, Pakistani, Indonesian and many many more people working stupid hours and working hard. I must have seen about 5 regular English nurses/care workers in 5 months.

For this reason alone I am voting to stay in the EU. Our local hospital had to do a recruitment project in Spain to bring nurses over because local and national citizens were not applying for or qualified for these jobs.

Until we can better educate ourselves and our children to take up these types of jobs and stop being so entitled to things and think we are better than jobs like cleaning/care working/fast food etc then we can not afford to leave the EU.

VOTE TO STAY IN!

On that quiz I come out as 50/50. I'm none the wiser.

Truth is no one knows what it will be like in the future if we remain or leave.

Who would have thought 10-15 years ago the EU would be what it is now?

Plus neither side is being completely truthful.

That is why it is all so muddy.

These threads only serve to illustrate the fact that we should not be having a referendum on this. It shouldn't be up to average joe who can't get a straight answer or fair picture.

There is a saying in personal finance/investment: it doesn't matter how fancy the percentages, the yields, the PE ratio, yadda, yadda, yadda - if you don't understand it don't buy it.
The EU is a big stodgy mess that you are not supposed to understand, they like the fact that you don't know what they are up to.

On that quiz I come out as 50/50. I'm none the wiser.

I thought I was 100% out but I came 50/50 too. Scaryteacher's result didn't tally either. Think it's rigged?

Truth is no one knows what it will be like in the future if we remain or leave
While this may be true (although there is, I believe, better predictive power for the Remain camp), there is only one way to ensure we can retain any power?

Leave: no idea of what will happen, and no idea how we can change what's happening.
Remain: no idea of what will happen, but part of a mechanism for changing it.

Spectacularly missing the point, unlucky. Because we haven't talked about how much we get back in our income from the EU (so although 0.3% is our expenditure, we get part of it back anyway, so it's an even smaller amount).

But quite frankly, yes, I am happy to give 0.3% (although it's less than that in actuality) for the benefits we get like decent working time directives, Human Rights laws, freedom of movement. You do realise that if it wasn't the EU, Cornwall and Wales (just for two parts of the UK) would be far worse off than they are because of the amount of investment they've had specifically from the EU?

Purirs I voted leave, the postal proxy has been completed and sent off by my Mum, so I am 100% for leave.

You do realise that if it wasn't the EU, Cornwall and Wales (just for two parts of the UK) would be far worse off than they are because of the amount of investment they've had specifically from the EU?

Is that the same Wales that recently lost its steel works because of EU machinations? Is that what you want: handouts instead of jobs? Look at the very long list posted above (Wednesday 18:02) of industry that has been lost because of the EU.

I don't get why Brexiters think we should get money back. It's a club so you pay to be a member of it. The money is then distributed around the whole club, you don't get your own subscription given straight back. And then ask for free food and drink at the annual get-together as well.

scary. I see that you are another one, like Gisela Stuart, who has had direct experience of the EU and have decided against based on that.

I don't think anyone actually knows what will happen, either way. I do hope that there won't be an amnesty and just because you are working in the UK, you can't automatically stay if you weren't born here. I assume there will be some sort of introduction of application for a working visa although I don't know how many years this will go back to.

There is a saying in personal finance/investment: it doesn't matter how fancy the percentages, the yields, the PE ratio, yadda, yadda, yadda - if you don't understand it don't buy it.

The trouble is, we already bought it.

That was the most dishonest sentence on a Brexit leaflet I got through the door the other day (saying something, as it let with the £350 million). It encouraged people to make their decision based on what they would do if we weren't in the EU - would you vote to join.

But that isn't the question. We don't have an economy chugging along quite nicely with no exposure to the EU. We don't have our own bilateral trade deals agreed in a measured, not desperate way, at a timetable that suited us over the last few decades. We don't have an economy that is not heavily exposed to EU markets over any others, with uncertainty over whether that will continue if our exports become more expensive.

The question is whether we want to leave something we are tightly knitted into, with the economic shocks and hits to people's jobs and wallets that come with any leap into political and economic instability.

We already bought it. The question is how much it's going to cost us to get out of it - and whether the long-term alternative is worth that price.

Is that the same Wales that recently lost its steel works because of EU machinations?

Ooh, let's be truthful, eh? That's the same Wales that recently lost its steel works because the UK government stopped EU machinations that might have saved them.

Does this help at all? fullfact.org/europe/

It is a murky area because none of us has a crystal ball. I can see we're at a crossroads in a very difficult time, migrant crisis, world economic woes, huge local socioeconomic problems. I'm voting remain because none of the exit arguments are convincing. I don't think the EU is responsible for all of the British problems, they're mostly local decisions. I don't think we can take the short-term economic shock which will obviously happen. It's all very well blithely saying 'we will recover' but how? With what? There're no cushions in our systems now. Immigration is something that concerns me, and in 5 years if we have rebuilt or started to rebuild Britain maybe I'd vote out. This is not the time for it.

still not missing the point...
Yes we get some money back - but not even the most ardent remainers (afaik) say we get back exactly what we put in in cash - we are a net contributor - think the most favourable figures from remain is we get back about 2/3rds of what we put in.
What has been invested in Wales and Cornwall was our money anyway...we could have made that investment and more - and more efficiently.
Said this on another thread - you ask me to borrow a tenner - I give it a third party, they take a £3.33 handling charge off it. Then you have to ask them for it (provide proof of why you need it etc - which actually costs you in phone calls, photocopying) and they decide whether you can have it or not and if they do give you the £6.66 they tell you how to spend it and want proof that is how has been spent....which costs you as well.
Back to the giving your neighbour the £600 - ok they give you £400 back - but tell you that has to be used to paint your house they colour they choose - or on plants for your garden which they want you to have...

Thank you, Jassy, for beating me to it. It was indeed our own UK Government that prevented Euro legislation that would have prevented the issue with the Welsh steel industry.

I voting remain because I think that the problems in the country are more the fault of our own government than the EU. The EU drive the majority of employment legislation, they drive environmental legislation, and many other things designed to improve our quality of life. The Tories would see both the workers of the country and our natural resources driven to exhaustion if it will make the rich richer.

I'm also in Northern Ireland and the EU has a big role in the peace process and I worry about the inevitable land border and the implications that will have for people who don't want NI to be part of the UK but can deal with it because of freedom of movement and trade with ROI that the EU facilitates.

As for immigration, I think the 'overcrowding' problems in the south of England are more related to the inequality of wealth and opportunity across UK regions than freedom of movement from the EU, but no one talks about that as much. Also it does nothing to address no EU immigration which is bigger.

I also think than it's naive to think the UK government are suddenly going to find some cash for public services post BREXIT. Any money saved from EU membership. If the vote is leave there will be a lot of disgruntled people out there who will feel very let down by the UK not turning into the promised land.

Finally, I just like being part of a bigger Europe. I love the opportunities it brings to travel and work abroad. I like that there is a big network of nations working together, perhaps not always agreeing, but having an ongoing open dialogue with our closest neighbours is a major positive in my mind. The UK will be worse off for not having a seat at the table.

As for finding some good info, the guardian has a series called something like what has the EU ever done for me, which could be a good starting point.

The question is whether we want to leave something we are tightly knitted into, with the economic shocks and hits to people's jobs and wallets that come with any leap into political and economic instability.

And all the time they want to tighten the spiders web so its even more difficult to leave.
A 'shock' is not necessarily a bad thing. It could rejuvenate us. We have got very lazy since joining the EU - look at comments above how we brain-drain other countries for NHS workers because we don't generate our own. How is that a sustainable plan?

Intelligent people don't vote for 'change' when they don't know what that 'change' entails.

#Remain

Maidofstars, I love that analogy, it is totally how I felt about the Scottish referendum too. The Yessers were all full of swagger, we're going to demand this that and the next thing, not take any share of the debt etc etc., when it's clear as the smaller party they would be in the weaker negotiating position.

www.frankfield.co.uk/latest-news/articles/news.aspx?p=1021270

Vote for the poor op.

It is the poorest in our communities, those whose choices in life are already by far the most restricted, whose standard of living is most adversely affected by the arrival of a record number of newcomers.

There is a school of belief which quite naturally draws upon compassion to justify the opportunities given to millions of people from the EU to start a new life here. But compassion demands that we consider as a priority the impact that so many new arrivals has on our poorest citizens’ chances of securing the ever scarcer necessities in life

^^ This really moved me, and I have also seen this with my own eyes.

There is a layer of society that is being crushed under the weight of the poor from the EU. As Frank says, do you want to support the poor already here, British nationals or does your loyalty lie with the poor of the whole EU?