To think homophobia will get worse in the Western Europe and not enough is being done to combat this prejudice

[evilcherub]

I know homophobia is already pretty common but I think it will get worse the more immigrants from cultures that are intolerant of homosexuality and homosexuals come to Western Europe. I hope gay people will remain safe here in the UK and able to lives their lives without fearing being "out".

I completely agree that's worrying.

I totally agree with Ego that we must not leave this to the Trumps of this world.
I think we must resist letting this slide into hatred of immigrants and hatred of others. That's appalling. And dangerous.
I honestly think that if something doesn't exist, and you realise that you - and a lot of other people. - need it, you have to accept you're going to have to make it, yourself.
It means being active, accepting failure along the way, and being tolerant of failure.
Instead of anger, saying: 'No, that's not it, not yet.' It means asking questions about what is lacking, what needs to be amended, added, subtracted.

A good place to start with this is with what the women activists, LBGT people, already mobilising for change - and there are always, already those people - within these groups are saying and calling for, then working with them, listening to them.

It's ridiculous to think there will already be a perfect, off-the-peg, perfect discourse that speaks for everyone in a relatively recent, evolving situation.

Ego, I'm not a Trump fan. Did you think I was?

It's not solely a foreign policy issue, it needs to be a domestic one. And taken seriously. As I said, I don't have all the answers. Some difficult discussions clearly need to be had without people on the left shrieking about bigotry. Sweeping it all under the carpet or indulging in navel gazing and meaningless cultural relativism hands a platform to the far right, who yes are the enemy of freedom and social justice. I'm not sure why some people find this so hard to grasp.

Starter for 10, the Sharia law courts should go. There is no reason to have a parallel legal system in this country. The judgements handed down frequently disadvantage women.

I'm not sure you've really understood my points cat. I think you're a little naive to be perfectly honest.

I live in 'a Muslim area'. Many of 'them' are my friends. 'They' have a range of opinions - just like non-Muslims. For obvious reasons, my Muslim friends are quite leftie-liberal.

Maybe you need to make some friendly contact with your neighbours, xxxxx and lose the generalisations and fear?

Or perhaps the problem is like befriending like?

Honestly, I worry that not enough people actually know any Muslims. So some people are able to come out with any utter mince. Muslims are not from another planet. Many, many people are Muslim and, in the way of people, have a whole range of opinions and experiences.

Maybe, Venus. I haven't read the whole thread. I'm also just thinking, quite generally, about how political discourses (such as how we will talk about situations such as the Cologne sexual attacks) get made.
It's hard work. They don't emerge in five minutes on social media. They usually arise from many people putting several years' work into them.

Another model is that of old-style consciousness-raising groups.

Basically, I think it takes actual work.

Don't worry cat, some of My Best Friends Are Muslim too. It doesn't mean I have to be happy about sex attacks by Muslim men in other European countries, and this one, having growing exposed to misogynistic cultures and ideas being swept under the carpet, minimised or completely ignored by the liberal media.

As I said Ego, I don't consider it solely a foreign policy issue.

Your last post was fair cat. I was reacting to the "utter mince" comment in my last.

My response was to xxxx's post which was worryingly generalising. To be honest, I think you should be a little more concerned about that than taking the opportunity to have a cheap laugh at me.

I'm out.

To be clear. I'm out of this thread because I really do have Muslim friends I really care for.
There is a real - researched - rise in anti-Muslim speech and sentiment. It has real, damaging effects on real lives.
Ant-Muslim speech actually causes me pain. People ignoring racism - because they don't see it? Because it doesn't matter to them? - really upsets me.
This thread is too risky for me. It's cost-benefit ratio is not going to be good, IMO. So I'm off to do some reading.

I'm a gay woman

I am also from the Middle East

I choose to live in the UK

If you told me I had to live in the Middle East, I don't know what I would do, I'd be horrified.

Of course there is a problem with homophobia and misogyny in Islam and cultures from the Middle East. The events in Cologne and other places show that we are importing those beliefs.

How many sexual assaults are we prepared to tolerate as part of this? What is the acceptable Number of women and children to be raped?

Things I read cause me pain too cat. You really do need to drop that emotional blackmail stuff as rhetoric to silence people, it makes other people feel like their concerns don't matter. It's totally unhelpful, and it smacks of gaslighting. Please think of your own influence on this dialogue.

I read a huge amount of rape and domestic violence apologist shit every day. It causes me actual pain, as much as your actual pain you talk of, as a survivor of rape and DV. I tend to wade in time after time, because I can't bring myself to allow the shit to go unchallenged. That goes for everything.

Stop trying to silence my concerns. Let stupid arguments be shown up as the stupid arguments they are. If they aren't so stupid, maybe you should rethink your own position.

Collateral damage for the greater good I think, Hermione.

It's not emotional blackmail, Venus, it's an explanation because I don't like to be rude.

I'm back because I also don't want to leave without saying something positive.

Forget Owen Jones. A good place to access alternative media is to link to Media Diversified on Twitter, which platforms non-mainstream writing, particularly that of women of colour.
It's great.

You can be as rude as you like to me. I'm not going to try to silence you. I'm sorry, it is emotional blackmail. And it's really not a good thing to do at all. Only in an environment where people are falling over themselves to validate everyone's feelings and not cause offence does it hold any water. It doesn't outside the echo chamber. Tell it to UKIP voters.

Do you care about the pain that I feel that sexual abuse and misogyny is swept under the carpet by public and prominent left wing voices, media and the authorities in the name of liberal values that I've always seen as mine? Does what happened in Rotherham and Rochdale not concern you? Or is the "greater good", as decided by you in your infinite wisdom, more important than that?

I've experienced how women get treated in a majority Muslim country - it wasn't good. I know quite a few Muslims as well, some good friends. The more I knew of them - the more I learned how women were treated in their culture, dominated by the Muslim religion or how their culture interpreted Islam - and agai, overall it wasn't good.

I always had a very liberal view of Islam - the more I see of it, the less tolerant of it I become. I feel the same about Catholicism and righ wing Christian groups, Orthodox Jews. I'm becoming less and less tolerant of all of these religions.

Agree Bam it ain't pretty up close.

All the people giving themselves a pat on the back for being liberal and inclusive don't have a fucking clue.

For obvious reasons, my Muslim friends are quite leftie-liberal

what?

I live on a multi cultural road and found it quite amusing when my lefty liberal neighbor ( or so she thinks) who to a patronizing degree cozies up to our neighbors.... saw our Muslim neighbors windows......all festooned with vote conservative!

Islam is a conservative religion! Its great if you know many Muslims who - like many Catholics and other religions have...eased up on the small print and become relaxed and casual and perhaps....lapsed but I think you are naive to think the natural default of the community is obviously liberal

I have pretty much lost my tolerance, I saw a great quote on fb today " if your religion needs you to hate someone, you need a new religion"

( or perhaps you dont need religion at all!)

ego

we are a standard bearer for tolerancen and rights, yes we have a long way to go but thats how these things go.

Its not just trans right, or gay rights, there is a group with LD who cannot speak for themselves at all, they need all the help everyone can give them regardless of sexual orientation or religion or creed. Hate crimes have soared agaisnt these people and they can't speak out about it. But still - still in spite of this we are a great country at trying to work out, how to include and help people with LD have better lives.

In Turkey I believe they just tie them to beds or keep them locked in cots in rooms with few provisions.

We are over all a good country.