To be livid that friend shouted at my child?

[TinyDancer69]

I am a single parent to my DS who is almost 4. Over the last year I have become close to my friend and her family and they have provided a huge amount of support to me. I am in the process of decorating my new house and she and her DH ave been amazing in terms of the support they have given me with painting, ripping out old carpets, tidying garden etc. Just general all-round helpful. Also very good and kind to DS who enjoys seeing them too.

I have noticed that on a few occasions if my DS misbehaves (as all toddlers do) she will tell him off even though I am right there. She's never shouted but it makes me uncomfortable. So I made a mental note that if it happens again I would say something. I hate confrontation but will not allow someone to tell off DS without my say-so.

We went to dinner with her family to celebrate a charity event they'd just completed. DS was sat next to friend and her DH and having a blast and I was relaxed and enjoying my night, knowing DS was in 'good' hands and I chatted to others at the table.

Then I heard her shout at DS to stop doing whatever it was (think he was messing around with his drink and spilling it). It startled me and was in my view out of line. I went to DS who looked taken aback and took him away from the table to 'chat' to him about incident. In fact I just wanted him away from the table and her. He calmed down,we returned to table and carried on. But I was and am fuming. I think those around the table knew I was not happy but probably thought it was due to DS misbehaving. I didn't say anything and we all went our separate ways a little while later.

But I am very unhappy but maybe I'm overreacting? If it was family, then fine. Or if DS was going to cause himself harm or someone else harm, then I would totally be ok at her telling him off.

I feel cooler towards her now but it's awkward because I feel indebted to her as she's been an otherwise great friend to me.

Any views/advice welcome!

I think it's right that other adults help modify the behaviour when you aren't there but a 4yr old doesn't need to be shouted at. I shout at my kids at times due to being completely worn down and at my limit but I wouldn't be happy for other people to (I'm not happy with myself for it). That said if an adult got a drink spiller on them and simply reacted without meaning to from the shock I wouldn't mind that, if anything it teaches kids there are consequences.

OP I can't judge if you are right to not like the way your friend disciplined your child or if you are someone who doesn't like other people disciplining your children at all which I don't agree with.

Its a control issue. You feel you have lost control, you feel as if you're being judged and you don't like it. Overthinking doesn't help either so suggest you get it in perspective now.

Seriously, this thread has gone a bit bonkers - fatal consequences from a spilled drink? OTT much?

I bet most people on this thread would not like a friend to shout at their child. Telling off, yes, fine, but shouting no.

Gosh I didn't expect such a response! I haven't read all the posts overnight/this morning but thanks replies. I will get round to reading them.

Intacta/Quencher - your comments hit a huge nerve for me. She has been a great friend to me over last year, whereas before I split with DS' father we were good friends but didn't see such a lot of each other.

I have no issue with my child being disciplined appropriately,by me if I'm there, or others if I'm not. He has been in nursery since he was 8 mo so I am no stranger to others telling him off when necessary.

However there is something that feels uncomfortable with her just stepping in and telling him off so harshly when I am there. I did not see what he was doing, but she was sat next to me so could have nudged me told me what he was doing. Instead she shouted and it startled me. It feels like she is almost assuming my role, but I also know she'd be very upset if she knew I felt like this.

Tbh they've given me amazing support and so good to DS. Her DH seems to adore my DS, as do her family. She is very direct and won't hold back her views on things, whereas I'm much more of a people-pleaser. I am probably fairly easy to 'bully' as DS' father did EA me and cheated on me, which is why I left.

I feel guilty feeling like this and am torn about what to do next. I don't think I want to lose this friendship over something like this, but equally I don't like the way this is making me feel.

Without going into too much detail I know my friend suffered an abusive childhood and has confided to me about this. I think maybe as a result boundaries are being crossed and its this that's causing me anxiety

From your last post this sounds like an issue you have with this woman personally and not about your son being upset by her behaviour. You say it startled you that she disciplined him and that you only mind that it was in your presence. You wouldn't have minded had you not been there? You think you are possibly being victimised by this woman.

It doesn't sound as if you like her very much to be completely honest. Except for the fact that you say she has done a lot for you and your son, you don't have much good to say about her. This sounds harsh and I don't say it lightly, but perhaps this isn't a friendship worth investing much more in? I'm not sure what the abuse your 'friend' suffered has to do with anything, but obviously there is something to that which you don't feel comfortable sharing on here (fair enough).

If she shouted loudly I can see why you think SWBU. I wouldn't have a problem with someone reprimanding my child in a way that I do though, as long as it was fair.

and insisted DS sat with her and her DH

Could it be that your ds has form for misbehaving and you don't do anything about it, so they felt the need to supervise him in a public place? I know someone like this in our group, she has had a hard time and has a pfb who is "spirited". His DM just doesn't see his behaviour for what it is, and on meals out when the kitchen staff(!) brought him back to her she just said "oh he really likes meeting new people" I feel for her but at the same time she is not doing her ds any favours.

Watch him properly next time, and discipline him yourself. If you appear to do nothing when he plays up/misbehaves/is a complete pain to everyone else other people will step in!

I'm surprised at how many posters think it's acceptable. (Would a light smack from the friend also be ok?) I think it's odd/inappropriate behaviour on the friend's part to (presume it's ok to) shout at somebody else's child, especially for a minor issue and in the public setting OP describes. Even if the friend spoke to OP's son about his behaviour, she could have handled it differently. How lovely/helpful she is generally does not give her the right to overstep the mark.

OP, if she's a good friend, then I think she should be able to accommodate your feedback/wishes on this.

The fact that you were sat next to your friend, and therefore in close proximity to your son, makes the whole thing more odd, in terms of her shouting at your son rather than involving you.

If he was fiddling with his drink and about to spill it would there have been time for her to nudge you, you to react, him to be told off by you, before that drink went all over her?

If you accept that your DS is misbehaving why shouldn't your friend tell him off - If you are there why are you not doing it???

I'm not sure she did anything wrong in speaking sharply to your son, but I felt uncomfortable when you said that she insisted your ds sit with her and her dh.
I'm sure you're extremely grateful for all their help but they sound very involved in your life and I think there's a risk of boundaries becoming a bit blurred. Is she quite a forceful person?
You sound as though you feel she is 'taking over' a bit?
I'm only saying this as I am hugely independent and would struggle with having this level of involvement with others, so feel free to ignore if you're entirely happy with the relationship as it is.

I think it's really out of order to imply that because she had an abusive childhood she, for merely shouting in what sounds like alarm, does not have the perfect boundaries you do.

There was no smack Fascicle, stop adding drama where there is none.

OP from what you have added it seems like your friend is overstepping a bit. Misguidedly so I would hope. She may not even know she is doing it. Some people like to think of themselves that they are 'strict' with children and until they have their own can be particularly misplaced with their role in friends children's discipline. I did it once in my youth to a friend who I know was in pieces trying to hold it together and the centre of the problem (this was what she said not that I had assumed) was her 4 yr old acting up. The child was a horror at the time and treating my friend terribly, she was holding back tears as child did as she pleased and in my ignorance I joined in saying no, don't do that etc and talking to the child in a way to move her behaviour in an opposite direction. I don't know how my friend felt about it (she may or may not have minded) but in the 4 yrs since I've had 3 kids so I realise there was more to her exhaustion with her daughter than just the kids bad behaviour. The child is a fantastic kid now. Particularly so! I also have a 22yr old cousin who is a nurse and likes to think she wouldn't put up with bad behaviour from kids so comes in throwing her weight around with my little ones but I know it's just that she doesn't understand yet and more laugh at it than be upset by it. So what I'm saying longwindedly is that your friend probably thinks she's being a guide to your child but doesn't realise she is handling it all wrong.

Have a word with her and say you appreciate the great relationship she has with your ds but would prefer when his behaviour is bad and you are there that she defers to you for discipline. If she is minding him then you trust her to handle discipline. Also you prefer not the shout at him as he responds well to x, y, z so it's unnecessary.

YANBU, totally not cool to discipline another person's child when the parent is right there, refer it to them. A kid shouldn't be shouted at for spilling a drink and she's got a nerve to take that upon herself.

Having just spent the weekend with 2 sets of children who have 'very permissive' parents all I can see is that it produces little horrors. I told them off numerous times despite the glares from the parents as they were ruining it for everyone and I see it as doing society a favour.

Pirate nah, just making a knob of yourself.

i don't agree with permissive parenting but I do agree with gentle parenting and OP just read she shouted loud enough to startle you - unnecessary and I'd be very cross about it.

Being told off by other adults isn't what teaches kids to behave when their parents aren't there. Learning good behaviour and behaving of their own volition is.

Piratepete I'd probably thank you for it.

You say in your second paragraph that if "DS misbehaves she will tell him off even though I am right there". If he is misbehaving, why aren't you telling him off?

totally not cool to discipline another person's child when the parent is right there, refer it to them

Hmmmm...I have 2 friends whose kids are totally disobedient and disrespectful - to me, a relative stranger . To be honest, I have told them off in parents' hearing a) I don't think the parents know what telling off looks like and b) They wouldn't actually tell them off if it was 'referred to them' (I wouldn't hit Marigold's ds with a stick, darling) and c) It feels like telling tales ("Dear friend, your ds has repeatedly hit my ds and won't stop when I have asked him nicely several times").

Shouting is not really discipline, it is usually, "You haven't listened to me the first 3x I asked very nicely and calmly, and now I am getting annoyed."

I had a friend that used to let her dc do whatever they wanted. The last straw was when the three year old stood on my laptop (on floor near tv) one day and she just sat there doing nothing/ignoring it. I had to tell him off, and explain the laptop was delicate and easily broken. While she continued to just sit there. It sounds like your friend is in a similar position. Why aren't you telling him off? Is he perhaps naughtier or more disruptive than you realise?

I find it incredible that people feel comfortable in suggesting that the OP wasn't watching or child adequately, simply because he spilled his drink. She was in the same space as him. But then she was probably doing something terrible for which she should be shot at dawn like, I don't know, having a conversation with someone, or eating. What a terrible mother, call social services immediately. He's FOUR! They don't need to be glued to the hip every single second. And how long does it take for a four year old to spill a drink? A second or two. Heaven forbid she bloody blink.
Sounds to me like OP is doing a perfectly good job of it all. Nobody should shout at a child for something so minor, and especially not when that child's parent is on hand to do any necessary telling off themselves. Her friend should have given her a gentle nudge if she'd seen something the OP had missed; that would have been so much more supportive. Nobody has eyes in the back of their head.
And as for these people who think they're doing us all a 'favour' by reprimanding other people's kids this way, well I'd rather put up with normal toddler/child behaviour including the normal boisterousness, sillyness and occassional misbehaviour that ALL children are capable of (anyone who's kidding themselves otherwise has forgotten actually being a child) than put up with your sanctimoniousness, lack of good will, and complete lack of humour.

"than put up with your sanctimoniousness, lack of good will, and complete lack of humour."

There's nothing funny about someone else's child acting the maggot, at risk of soaking you or breaking something, while parent ignores the bad behaviour. Or worse, thinks it's funny...

A sense of humour is pretty eseential to survive parenting, no? Maybe not for you. There's a difference between having the good humour to deal with the normal, everyday frustrations of parenting and laughing whilst your child breaks something or karate chops another child. OPs child spilled a drink, he didn't throw a glass of squash at sonething/someone. Of course she wouldn't laugh, but neither does a spillage require being shouted at so loudly that a 4 yr old is left shaken. Again, maybe it does warrant that in your home.

I agree that there is nothing that indicates that the OP was not or would not have disciplined her child.

Regarding parents who obviously and repeatedly don't discipline their children, well that's all fine and I wouldn't usually say anything but I don't think it would be fair to be called sanctimonious for stepping in if someone else's child was about to damage something of mine or hurt another child/person.

And there is no doubt that there are parents who are too hands off in this world. Its not it something I really see much of to be honest and often I would think parents are just so tired of being a broken record with their kids they lose the will to discipline at various points in the day so can be cut a bit of slack as long as they aren't doing anything horrific.

The whole "we never shout, just explain" thing bothers me a little. Children who get scared stiff when they hear a shouty voice might become nervous wrecks. Teachers have to shout sometimes, despite the claims that "a good teacher never shouts"etc. Sometimes they have to -sports days, school trips, out in the open air getting the children to line up, trying to organise class assemblies/Christmas parties/pantomimes. Some people and teachers are shouty. It doesn't mean they're aggressive or bad people.

I taught a child once who insisted that I had no right to tell him off, because I wasn't his mum or dad. His behaviour was generally pretty challenging. Just an observation, and I'm not addressing this post at the OP who sounds like a sensible woman, but other posters have said the "we never shout" and "DH and I are the ones to tell them off" thing.