To be livid that friend shouted at my child?

[TinyDancer69]

I am a single parent to my DS who is almost 4. Over the last year I have become close to my friend and her family and they have provided a huge amount of support to me. I am in the process of decorating my new house and she and her DH ave been amazing in terms of the support they have given me with painting, ripping out old carpets, tidying garden etc. Just general all-round helpful. Also very good and kind to DS who enjoys seeing them too.

I have noticed that on a few occasions if my DS misbehaves (as all toddlers do) she will tell him off even though I am right there. She's never shouted but it makes me uncomfortable. So I made a mental note that if it happens again I would say something. I hate confrontation but will not allow someone to tell off DS without my say-so.

We went to dinner with her family to celebrate a charity event they'd just completed. DS was sat next to friend and her DH and having a blast and I was relaxed and enjoying my night, knowing DS was in 'good' hands and I chatted to others at the table.

Then I heard her shout at DS to stop doing whatever it was (think he was messing around with his drink and spilling it). It startled me and was in my view out of line. I went to DS who looked taken aback and took him away from the table to 'chat' to him about incident. In fact I just wanted him away from the table and her. He calmed down,we returned to table and carried on. But I was and am fuming. I think those around the table knew I was not happy but probably thought it was due to DS misbehaving. I didn't say anything and we all went our separate ways a little while later.

But I am very unhappy but maybe I'm overreacting? If it was family, then fine. Or if DS was going to cause himself harm or someone else harm, then I would totally be ok at her telling him off.

I feel cooler towards her now but it's awkward because I feel indebted to her as she's been an otherwise great friend to me.

Any views/advice welcome!

Um, did somebody on mumsnet claim that there are children who NEVER EVER misbehave? No, I didn't think so.

'Lively/spirited' is code for very very naughty to the point of driving everyone around to distraction. And such parents always firmly believe that all children are lively/spirited, so this is normal and perfectly ok. Well, it's not. Face reality.

Parents of screamers come on here saying 'my children scream at the top of their lungs, like all children do' and then if you challenge them they say 'what, you mean your child has NEVER EVER raised her voice, not even once?'

There's a difference between something happening sometimes and something happening so often that it becomes accepted as normal. In fact, no, toddlers do not spend most of their time misbehaving. Does that mean they have NEVER EVER misbehaved? No, of course not.

Saying 'my child misbehaves like all children do' is like saying 'I forgot to set my alarm clock and wake up for work like all people do'. Only a lazy fecker who's always late for work would say that. Nobody is saying that such a thing has never ever happened to them, and they have never ever been late for anything in their entire life, but that does not mean it is a normal and usual way that most people live every day.

Sort your children out. Watch them at play with others, that will tell you something. If other parents are intervening, probably your dc needs some discipline.

There's a new term for lively/spirited children doing the rounds "fierce hearts". Looking forward to seeing it make an appearance on MN immensely!

Actually, kawliga - that's exactly what ...not all toddlers misbehave... says

Haven't heard of 'fierce hearts' - what does it mean, and do the parents say 'my dc have fierce hearts, like all children do'?

If parents think their dc's behaviour is perfectly ordinary and usual, why do they add 'like all children do?' Lots of posters describe their dc without saying 'like all children'. In fact, 'like all children do' is only added when children are exceptionally naughty, misbehaving, shouting, or just doing something the parents know is unacceptable.

Wouldnt bother me in the slightest if my friend shouted at my DC. She wouldn't do it if they were not deserving of it.

And seriously- not all toddlers misbehave. DD2 has just turned four and she if continued to act in the manner your DS was she would be taken home. If you let them get away with it, they misbehave. Kids mess- I get them doing it, and them doing it again to test you- but a firm "no" follows after that. They test boundaries- my 3 do things with my Mum/inlaws/friends/other family that they know they wouldn't get away with with me and DH. They all know what we consider acceptable and unacceptable and I have no qualms (and I hope they do) in them telling them to behave themselves.

See, I helped you out by reposting this. Read the whole post calmly, and try not to get too excited. She is not saying that her children have NEVER EVER misbehaved ever, since the day they were born, not once.

Disciplining children is one of the main duties of a parent. It is hard work but it has to be done. It cannot be fobbed off to friends, no matter how lovely and helpful they are.

But kawliga, "like all children do" says it's that normal occasional misbehavior, not that they're misbehaving every 5 minutes and the poster for some bizarre reason thinks that's normal. Why would they think that? They surely have met other children.

I like "fierce hearts"! Haha. DD is most definitely fierce.

Kawliga, all children misbehave, no? But not all are "lively/spirited". And some misbehave all the time without being at all lively OR spirited (I've met a fair few sulky, lazy and badly behaved children). And perfectly possible to be lively and spirited and also not misbehave very much. Some misbehave occasionally, some do all the time, some in between. Some children who look the "best behaved" are, in fact, actually not very nice in other ways! (my step-niece is one of these - perfectly behaved in public, but mean and cruel to other children when she gets a chance, and fond of making slightly sharp remarks). There are worse things than a bit of childhood misbehaving.

Spilling drinks? Children do that, and it's not necessarily misbehaviour. Yes it might be obvious to an adult that if you do this or that eventually something else will happen, but it isn't always that obvious to a child. Who might be clumsy, or silly, but not misbehaving as such.

From the OP's description, it sounds a bit questionable to me about whether it was reasonable to shout at the child. Something dangerous understandable. Something deliberately naughty, wilful, hurtful or unpleasant maybe. Messing with a drink? Annoying, exasperating, silly even, but misbehaviour on the level of being shouted at by another adult? Sounds a bit OTT to me. An adult should be able to correct a child's behaviour without shouting if it's just a matter of messing about with a drink.

Did your friend seem embarrassed at all, OP?

sorry, didn't mean for strikethrough there, not sure what happened!

Yes, OP has surely met other children. Perhaps all the children at this party were messing about and spilling their drinks, as all children do?

I've not met many 3 or 4 year old children who don't spill the odd drink every so often.

I assure you, no parent whose child occasionally misbehaves would describe them as lively/spirited. Lively/spirited is code. You never hear 'my dd is lively and spirited, she plays Chopin with great energy'. Or 'my lively spirited child is great at sport and has a great competitive spirit'. No, it's usually 'the school is very unfair to my dd and excluded her for throwing daggers at other children. I admit dd is lively and spirited but she doesn't deserve to be picked on' etc. Show me a 'lively spirited' and I'll show you a post about a badly behaved child.

Similar, 'like all children do' or even 'like all men do' is always attached to bad behaviour. You never hear 'my husband does all the housekeeping, like all men do'. No, it will be 'my husband shouts at me and calls me vile names, like all men do'. Um, no. Sort your issues out.

um, ok...

Yes George- accidents happen. But letting a 4 year old play with their drink and food in a public restaurant isn't polite and could have fatal consequences.

If you want to have food fights and spill coca cola all over your kitchen floor- knock yourself out. But i'd be pissed if a) I was a paying customer and slipped on the floor, hurt myself and then found out it was because a 4 year old wasn't told to behave appropriately or b) if I was a member of staff, I injured myself and I had to get signed off on the sick and potentially loose my job.

Would YOU? If you were in a restaurant and the child on the table next to you spilt a drink on the floor and your child slipped and hurt themselves wouldn't you have something to say if you had witnessed their parents let them get away with it? I would be livid.

I've not met many 3 or 4 year old children who don't spill the odd drink every so often.

Well, I'm older than 3 or 4 and I still occasionally spill my drink. But I wouldn't say 'so, I was messing about and spilled my drink, like all adults do'. Because spilling drinks, I'm happy to say, is not my normal and usual behaviour.

I know the OP has been back and updated already but why are people banging on about 'normal toddler behaviour' when in this case the child is four?

Hmm - I haven't read the whole thread and it's the early hours and I'm tired. You never know with MN do you - I thought everybody would pile in to see OP is NBU - but apparently not, although the debate has obviously taken a few twists and turns that I've missed.

Anyway sounds like the OP is a single parent and I think we tend to be a tad over protective of our children, having to be mom and dad etc. I am amazed that so many posters are talking of disciplining each other's children. My kids have long gone - I'm a grandmother, but when the kids were young it was an absolute NO GO area to tell each other's kids off - and I think we all knew it though it was never discussed. Moan about it to friend/relative, whoever if you were a bit pissed off with friend X about something kid related, but NOT to the friend herself.

I had a friend whose son was a little sod in my view - she referred to him as a "scamp" - hmm- he used to throw my son's toys about and broke quite a few. Occasionally he hit my son (they were the same age) and he'd demand cake/drinks whatever and his mom never corrected him, but I never said a word, and we're still friends to this day. The "scamp" grew into a lovely young man and we've met up at family weddings etc and his kids seem very nice.

Sorry I'm rambling, but NO it's not on to tell someone else's kid off - and interestingly my DILs feel the same, so it's not a generation thing. One of my DILs calls her close friend's son all manner of things (and it's justified) but never tells him off. Having said all this my grandson had a bouncy slide for his birthday party last year and there was one kid who was really being difficult, pushing the girls down the slide and scaring them, climbing up the slide when the other kids were coming down, shoving past the kids as they climbed up the "bouncy" steps to the top and even climbing on the outside of the inflatable. His nan was there with him and was getting the vino down her taking no notice of her grandson, so I did ask her if she minded if I told him not to push the girls down the slide etc and she was fine - "oh yes" she said "he's a little bugger isn't he" - but the kid took no notice of me and a bit later one of the little girls came to me saying that X had "got Y in the bedroom and was hitting her" (Y was a little girl aged 5) so I told my son and he went up and sure enough there was a 5 year old in tears and scared - X was 9. My son told X's granddad and he dealt with the situation immediately and was very robust (not physically) with X although he did stop him from going anywhere near the slide and watched him like a hawk.

Oh I must shut up................

I think it's okay to ask her to back off a bit. I have done this with a friend before and she was really fine about it and embarrassed to have over-stepped the mark. Having a quiet word sorted out the problem very easily and restored the friendship. I think it would be well worth your talking to her.

If just add another angle, for thought.

My husband, after a few beers, can be an absolute social knob. (Not nasty, just a waffling attention seeking dick) For the first 10 years of marriage, I would be mortified. I'd feel embarrassed I'd feel it necessary to apologise etc etc etc. Then I took a step back. The guy is quite entitled to be a drunk social bore. It's absolutely no reflection on me.
My point is, I wonder if you are extremely sensitive (not a criticism just some of us are and some of us aren't) to your DS being an extension of you and a reflection of you? Are you perhaps feeling the chastisement as a personal one? If so, I'd just say, your son is behaving as an utterly normal 4 year old. Your friends don't think anything less of you if DS pulls the cats tail. It would be sad if your relationship was affected because you feel judged and chastised yourself over perfectly normal 4 yo faux pas.

Your friends sound priceless and in the overall scheme of things, perhaps talk to them and ask if they ever feel DS is a burden or nuisance to them. They will I'm sure, tell you absolutely not. They will tell you he's simply a 4yo doing what 4yo do. Enjoy your time together, enjoy the respite they give you by stepping in as supervisors and enjoy what appears to be a very lovely utterly supportive friendship .

Op I think YANBU, I'd be really annoyed too. However helpful she's been to you, she does not have the right to shout at your child. I'm not surprised you're livid. I was a single mum for a few years and noticed people seemed to think they could do this, in a way I don't think they would have if dh had been around. I think you need to tell her it's not ok or she will do it again. Perhaps text her if you don't want to do it face to face?

It's nice to see comments being taken on board.

Tbh op I only leave my kids with people I trust. That includes trusting to tell them off. I wouldn't leave them with my mum if I felt she couldn't tell them off. Because it would be a nightmare for her.

The problem being that other people do act differently. My mum is stricter than me, but she adores the kids and they adore her. So we let her get on with it.

It completely depends on the OP's relationship with the friend tbh. Some acquaintances of mine would never dream of telling off (and that is such a subjective term anyway) my DD, but she is 18mo and does completely mad toddler things. Her Godparents etc will chase after her if she is trotting off towards open water / a busy road / sharp implements and will tell her "no". I'm glad they do. Ditto if she snatches another child's toy they would say "no darling, Georgia is playing with that, you have this one" or if she is merrily emptying a bottle of shampoo all over the carpet they will take it off her and tell her "no".

If you don't like the way the friend talks to your child, then either tell her so and move on or don't bother being her friend. It's not as if she is a close relative or partner.

Intacta's post bothered me a little bit. It's all a bit chest beaty and "get off my turf" is it not? The idea that the friend is encroaching on the OP's female domain is the kind of possessive attitude I really don't want to have over my DD. She is a human being, not my 'turf'. "How dare someone else discipline / tell off / talk to my child like that" is something I have heard people say and which doesn't sit well with me.

Yes, if this lady was shouty, unpleasant / aggressive and upset a 4yo that is pretty bad, but says a lot more about her as an individual than it does about her friendship with OP. And btw I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who was aggressive towards a child, regardless of whose child it was, but I wouldn't take the attitude that nobody else can discipline my child in my presence simply "because she's mine" and I don't want my female domain being encroached upon.

Just realised I said it completely depends on the OP's relationship with the friend - it does if it was a normal "no don't do that" or if it was nasty and aggressive. If it's the latter, I wouldn't have a relationship of any kind with someone who did that to anyone's child (including her own).

tiny fair play to you for taking all the comments on board.

I'd just contact yiur friend and explain you were taken aback because her tone startled you and you wondered what your DS had done to warrant such a reaction.

As your DS gets a little older and a little distance from you - parks/soft play/ playground etc you'll find lots more adults will speak to him about what he's doing.

It's hard but you learn to cope with it.