To think if i call social services ...

[IsThisForTheBest]

Then they will support someone in need rather than remove their child?

I ve name changed for this as this is going to be very identifying.

Last week me and dh went to bil house and we got a shock!

Bil has learning difficulties and a brain injury (water on the brain as a baby and has had over 20 operations on his brain)

He has sole custody of his pre teenage son (mother estranded from them)

We have always know his house to be filthy. Dh and his brother was brought up like that and his brother thinks his house is clean. Last week im sure it was worse!

I wouldnt even go to the toilet there or have a brew and i didnt even want to lean back on the sofa! I refuse to take my dd there as he is a heavy smoker too.

He has always been volatile and has behavioural issues. He has an obsession with calling people cunts, twats, faggots etc.

He is forcing his child to call people a faggot in the street etc.

His son has no social skills and has poor speech.

His son has gained approx 2 stone in weight in the last year and when we saw him last week he was very clearly very over weight. He had always been very very slim.

He openly admits to allowing his son to buy big bags of crisps every day after school and only drink cola. No water or anything else.

He doesnt have a social worker. Last week when dh went to the shop with bil, bil was shouting to people in the street calling them a MILF.

He is extremerly vulnerable with money and will offer his bank card out to his neighbours so they can use it!

He has been taken advantage of a few times.

When he was driving he used to drive very irratic around the street and used to think it was funny.

He has since had his licence revoked due to health reasons but did mention he may be getting it back.

I think bil could do with some support (we are 2.5hours away) and im thinking if social services pay him a visit they could put some support in place for him, maybe send him on some courses etc and assign him a social worker.

Dh has gone mad at this idea as he feels ss will just take his son away and he doesnt want that on his conscience. He feels that any stress towards his brother will result in him needing brain surgery again (this does tend to happen when he is under enormous pressure ) and he doesnt want to be responsible for that.

I dont think its wise dh speak to him about the way he behaves and the state of the house as he will be very defensive and volatile towards dh and he just wouldnt get anywhere with him.

Aibu to think he needs social services help and they will give him support rather than take his son away from him?

Fascinating row about Childrens social care going on here. If it were a bunch of men we'd call it willy waving.

The long and short of it is that OP needs to make the referral with as much identifying detail as she can, and the OP and her partner ought to think if they can help another way.

OP do you know which LA/borough to call? If it is south wales I can help if you pm me the town? I work in children's social care too.

There's no quality data showing that stress or anxiety alone have any measure able effect on a baby.
There have been studies done on women under famine conditions which show an effect, and those under intolerable stress (we are talking forced labour internment/serious trauma) and even those effects are small.
There has been some muttering in the press about maternal stress and autism/schizophrenia but that data is tiny samples, not been reproduced etc. It's unlikely to be replicated or verified.

Stress and anxiety post birth is a different matter. That can affect the mothers binding for example.

I just didn't want anyone with pregnancy anxiety to read that and go into a downward spiral ....

I have googled his nearest one and have the contact details.

Its not as over subscribed as what England is. There is no housing shortage etc or long waiting lists for an exchange

IsThisForTheBest so glad you are going to call social services. Well done for making a wise choice. All the very best for your nephew, you and your family.

You have a duty of care to your nephew - this child's life is more important than your DH's relationship with his brother.

He needs help, you know that

Ultimately, if SS do take your nephew into care then that'll be because that's what needs to happen. Your nephew is the most important person in this and he has to come first, regardless of anyone else's wellbeing or feelings. Call SS.

Skiptonlass please quote your source re damage to the foetus in utero Replicated/high* quality research is not evidence - I would have thought with your background you would know the importance of quoting your source.

My source is Why love Matters by Sue Gerhardt. It's available on Amazon for around a tenner.

It IS getting like "willy waving" on here, except that we're women!

Come on Nana, you're really hijacking. If you're concerned that incorrect info is out there then start your own thread on that subject and link to it. At the end of the day, regardless of what you or any other SW on this thread think will happen, the OP will only find out when she makes the call tomorrow.

Could you try Google Maps and find the area and then look for the street?

with the experience i've had with social services (via children at school) my benchmark that i go by is if no-one fights the childs corner then who is going to? it sounds like their beasic needs are not being met. so i'd definitely phone the social services, and let the childs school/nursery/gp know that you have phoned them too.

justs een that you don't know what school they are at. but definitely phone them anyway. (i.e. phone ss)

Ah here we are again Skiptonlass "There's no quality data done on how stress and anxiety alone have any measurable effect on a baby." I would ask again for your source but it's not possible to prove a negative. I would have thought given your stated qualifications and background you would be familiar with this concept. You talk of "studies done on women in famine conditions, but even those effects are small" - what is your source for these studies and the effects are small - small - and you're a scientist - how small is small ??? If you're trying to blind me with science you're not making a very good job of it!

And then we have "mutterings in the press" - sounds like the DM - a quality newspaper would produce a well researched and cogent article on the issue.

Stress and anxiety post birth is a different matter - this can affect* the mother's binding - OK that was a typo and you meant bonding - I think that's a very simplistic assertion on this important issue. Stress and anxiety are mental health conditions and can affect the attachment pattern between mother and child. If a child's needs are neglected or he is abused and the mother is not attuned to the baby's needs, then an insecure attachment pattern is formed - this process begins in the baby's first hours, days, weeks, months etc. A secure attachment is formed when the mother s highly attuned to the baby's needs and gives him unconditional love. Sadly an insecure attachment pattern can adversely affect a child to a greater or lesser extent throughout his childhood. I am using "mother" here but of course it can be anyone who is the baby's primary carer.
If anyone is interested I can quote the source.

I realise I am digressing from the OP but I too "can't let matters lie" that need to be challenged.

There was a poster on here last year with severe prenatal anxiety. She was involved her anxiety would damage the baby, leaving him with an increased risk of schizophrenia or autism. She considered abortion because of it.
You're quite correct you can't prove a negative. If you make statements like there is evidence that being tense and anxious can damage the foetus in utero it's up to you to back it up (with quality research, from peer reviewed journals. Not an op ed from Mercola or a DM article.)
The data from Dutch famine victims in WW2 is actually very interesting. Their foetuses' metabolism seems to have been affected, and even more interesting the effect persists through a third generation, possibly via genomic imprinting (am I blinding you with science yet?) but there's NO evidence that maternal psychological stress damages the foetus in utero. Being tense and anxious doesn't harm your baby in the womb.

The poster from last year, or another woman suffering from severe anxiety, would read what you wrote and go into a tailspin.

I know fuck all about social work. But please don't question my scientific credentials.

I'm not sure if you are deliberately "sliding around" the points I raise or whether you are failing to grasp that I am asking you for evidence of your assertions.
OK - I'll try again - Initially you denied that the foetus can be harmed in utero but did not provide your source for this assertion. I provided mine "Why Love Matters" by Sue Gerhardt. Have you read the book? If not, I suggest you do. You haven't responded to any of the issues I raise in my post above; in fact you completely ignore them and go into a detailed description of a woman with prenatal anxiety and that I should provide evidence, about how a foetus in utero can be adversely affected with quality research and peer reviewed journals and oddly not an op ed from mercola or a DM article..???...........I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I was actually asking you to provide evidence and commented that the "mutterings in newspapers" sounded like their source was the DM as a quality newspaper would provide a high quality article which had been well researched.

Then oddly you start to talk about famine victims in WW2. Yes you are using terms that are unfamiliar to me, but I'm always very wary of people who try to "blind with science" (and literally in this case) because competent and self assured professionals don't need to indulge in this practice, it's usually people who are trying to impress and cover up their own incompetence that employ these tactics.

I used the term tension in the pregnant mother as a shorthand and obviously there is a difference between a mother who is suffering from prenatal depression and anxiety, and one who is being abused by a partner or husband and the marriage/relationship is characterised by domestic violence, and the mother is in a state of fear and living in an atmosphere of extreme tension. I didn't actually think I needed to make that differentiation as I thought people would grasp the concept quite easily.

So here we are with another negative that can't be proven "being tense and anxious doesn't harm the baby in the woman" - read Gerhardt's book - it's based on scientific studies - so right up your street! Seems you're something of a mind reader since you state categorically that the woman who posted last year or any woman with anxiety in pregnancy would go into a "tailspin" if they read of they read of this subject. As it happens I've had some very interesting discussions with woman on MN both pre and post birth and most have been very interested to know how a foetus in utero can be adversely affected by domestic violence and extreme hostility and tension in the marriage/relationship.

I don't think you need to swear and I have every right to question your scientific credentials, and were it not for hi-jacking this thread I would continue to do so, because, as I've already said, people who like to "blind with science" and become defensive are often people who have no self believe and thus, for me, make me suspicious of their competence.

I'm surprised he is allowed near kids at all. Sounds exactly like DPs brother who I avoid like the plague and have banned from ever seeing DD. He is violent and needs someone to care for him. I feel bad for your BIL's son to be honest.

Sorry to hack thread but I have been dying to know what happened to that poster, was it all ok? Didn't want to start a thread to ask or know who to ask...

Well the OP was contacting Children's Services on Monday (it's Monday now of course) but if office hours! I don't think she's going to get very far to be honest, especially on a Monday as it's the busiest day of the week (bit like GPs) as they have to pick up everything from over the weekend.
But yes it will be interesting. It's been a lively debate!!

I never understand why why love matters is quoted as scientific evidence. It's just a book. It claims to use a variety of research to back up its claims but unless you've read and understood those science papers you can't really claim it as your source

She's ok. She's a lovely person, kept the baby and is doing great.

Nana nina. A book is not a scientific source. There's loads of evidence that not bonding/neglect after birth etc cause damage. I'm sure as a social worker you saw the consequences of this played out daily. That's your area of expertise

The genetics of development is mine. There's no evidence maternal anxiety harms the foetus in utero.

NanaNina. What do. You define as getting far? An emergency intervention on the way the report is made? I wouldn't.

Unless there was concern that he is at risk
of serious physical harm I'd expect it to take some time. To check for any other reports, to maybe speak to school and doctors. That doesn't mean that social services won't help.

Good luck for you today OP. I hope you can start the ball rolling on some support and help for them both.

Nananina's advice is often outdated and incorrect. She prefaces every post with 'I'm a retired social worker with 30 years experience' as if that means she knows all but she must have a retired a good few years ago if she doesn't have experience of PLO.
In my local authority This case would be likely to meet threshold for PLO and removal as this child is currently suffering significant harm and it's likely to get worse as he reaches teenage years.
The father doesn't sound like he has sufficient parenting capacity to raise this child.

The other things is that SS may find MORE abuse than we know about here. So you can't make decisions other than call/ don't call based on this thread

Please keep us posted, OP. Let us know what ss say when you call them today.

Right update...

I ve rang social services this morning. Basically they do not force parents to accept help. If they dont want it then they go away and leave them to it.

Only in exceptional circumstances were the parent needs sectioning will social services intervene.

They said from what i describe bil doesnt need sectioning (i agree) and that they will contact his school and see if they have any concerns. He said there have been no reports on this bil or my nephew.

He has said that the school nurse could speak to bil and offer advice on healthy eating etc but if he refuses then there is nothing they can do.

Its all to do with human rights he said.