To think that students shouldn't be making teachers cry FFS!.

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

...and that the school system is essentially fucked because teachers have too many pressures and are treated like crap?

DS is not good at Maths. He's not badly behaved but is not good at Maths hence he is stuck in a set where the kids tend to be badly behaved.

The teacher is obviously not a native English speaker but DS says he is perfectly understandable. His classmates however are constantly teasing this poor man about his English. It became so bad today that the teacher actually cried and then lost it and yelled at the kids that he spoke 5 languages and they only spoke one.

I feel so sorry for this guy. He must be at the end of his tether but how can he possibly teach and be effective with 30 students, all the marking, planning and politics. I feel like it's an impossible task.

But what can the government/society do to make teachers' lives easier, especially when you consider the drop out rate or is it just inevitable that with so little money and so many children to educate that the school system is essentially fucked?

Some of these children who act up in class could also have Special needs, which need to be identified by school and acted upon so the child gets appropriate help and support. It does vary from school to school, resources, and attitudes towards special needs. My friendsds 9 moved from infant to junior school. He did have issues, but his previous school we able to support him appropriately and he did very well in his year1 SATS. Come thr move to junior school, the changes, lack of structure meant he started to act up. Being violent aggressive, throwing furniture etc. My friend was at a loss what to do, they were having problems at home. The school used negative language to describe him and the SENCO was as good as a chocolate teapot.

He was excluded several times, then permanently excluded to a PRU. Well th re PRU have been awsome, they suspected he had ASD PDA, got the professionals and support he needed, he is under Paediatrician and going through ASD assessment, he is calm and happy and has an EHCP with the help of PRU. Will go going to a very clued up mainstream with a specialist ASD consultant employed by the school.

The state of affairs described by so many posters - teachers and parents - is deplorable. Of course teachers should not have to put up with the sort of behaviour described by OP and others.

What can teachers do? If someone told me to 'fuck off', or threatened me that she would 'break [me] by Christmas', would I not be within my rights to refuse any dealings with that person until - at the very least - that person had apologised to my satisfaction and I was convinced of their contrition?

A solicitor? A painter and decorator? A bank teller? Checkout operative? Accepting such behaviour from those they come across as clients at work? No? Teachers: do the same. Refuse to have anyone who does this sort of thing in your classroom until the matter is sorted to your satisfaction. Vote in your unions to do this and have your unions support you. If your management refuse to back you, have your unions take them on for constructive dismissal. And so on.

That's going to be a long-term fight, sadly made more difficult by teachers' lack of such professional gumption over many years. But, yes, teachers need to toughen up ... just not, not in terms of allowing such behaviour and accepting responsibility as individuals. Stand up for yourselves as a profession and get yourselves better treatment at the same time as improving the educational environment for your pupils.

Oh, and yes, I've been a teacher, in several continents and many schools. What I propose can be done, ime anyway.

Oh again, and TheNewStatesman, you're plumb wrong that 'most of [maths] is not particularly "fun" '. Maths at school is one of the most enjoyable things young people encounter. To access the enjoyment, though, you do need something of a quiet environment (and possibly a teacher who knows what they're up to) to facilitate concentration. Sure, no fun at all if children are allowed to waste their and others' time by engaging in such awful behaviour as OP and pp describe. But, seriously, yes, fun, given an appropriate environment.

greys it is simply not possible to refuse any dealings with the child in question. Not unless you want to be on a short path to capability or dismissal.

And sadly now that so many schools hae converted to academies unions will have less and less power to support.

I agree that teachers could have done more to stand together but it's probably too late now.

Aeroflotgirl
"Some of these children who act up in class could also have Special needs, which need to be identified by school and acted upon so the child gets appropriate help and support"

Some do, but most don't, (waits to be flamed by certain posters) the vast majority of children that have special needs or LDs want to learn, they are (in the main) the best behaved in the class IME.

Some of these children who act up in class could also have Special needs, which need to be identified by school and acted upon so the child gets appropriate help and support
Some may have SN, but equally too often the need to 'explain' the behaviour or excuse it gets in the way of effective behaviour management. or indeed the child has SN but this is separate/does not excuse the behaviour. A child with SN (totally dependent on the individual obviously) can still choose to misbehave and often this is not challenged. Of course also their needs might not be being efficiently met - it is so not black and white.

I think it's a bit naïve to believe that other workers don't have to accept rudeness from people using their services. My dd was called a fat cow at work yesterday by a customer for pointing out that he needed to join the queue to get served. She says she is spoken to rudely on most days, usually by adult professionals (coincidentally, in the teaching profession). She has to go on smiling politely because that is company policy.

Having said this, while a waitress cannot discipline the customers, a school is allowed to discipline its pupils. A teacher should expect support from his head on this matter. A school where bullying is allowed to carry on unchecked is not a good place for anyone.

IME, some teachers from other countries can really struggle in Britain, because this kind of behaviour from children simply would not be tolerated there.

cory

She says she is spoken to rudely on most days, usually by adult professionals (coincidentally, in the teaching profession)

Only by teachers?

Some kids act up in class because they have SEN which means they struggle with classroom expectations. The kid with SEN who walked up to me in the corridor and said 'I'm going to wreck your lesson today' was also a pain the in the arse who knew exactly what he was doing.

I think what New Statesman meant by maths not being "fun" is that while it can definitely be rewarding and enjoyable, it isn't "fun" in the sense that most children think of "fun". The word "fun" is normally used by those who tell teachers how to teach (often referred to as "educationalists") to cover such "learning activities" as playing games, physically "active" learning, role-play, etc. Things which can sometimes have their place, but which on the whole are no substitute for good whole-class teaching and practice.

ilovesooty you're right, ' it is simply not possible to refuse any dealings with the child in question. Not unless you want to be on a short path to capability or dismissal .' That's a large part of what the problem is.

Sadly, you're also right about the power of unions wrt academisation. Teachers have a fight on their hands, indeed. But it's useful to see the problem for what it is, as related to the power or lack of it in relevant professional associations.

corythatwas, you may be right too. But people with a strong union or professional association to back them up? Barristers? Police?

In short, if you're treated badly at work, gang together with your colleagues and say 'We won't accept this treatment.' Be prepared to fight as a group. As an individual, you have no power; as a group, you do. Teachers, take note!

Grey you know what happens when teachers try to make a stand? We are called lazy, parents moan about holidays we have and that teachers have it easy. All of it boils down to respect. The profession of teacher has been devalued by years of meddling and people being told the education system is broken/rubbish/dumbed down.
The fact is more that those meddling with education have broken it - not teachers.
I teach English. The current Year 11s have a different exam than those in the year before. And a different ones from those in the year below. Unnecessary meddling. Ultimately the exam is the same just what is being taught is different and allegedly more challenging. When actually it is just geared for the more academic so more pupils will fail.
The biggest issue facing education is the changing in technology and the desire from pupils to have everything instantly. In restaurants I see three year older glued to iPads, I see 10 year olds taking photos of their food and posting it on social media. Don't get me started on adults! I do not see conversation, engagement and enjoyment.
Teachers have to fight this lack of interaction at home in their classrooms. Mobile phones are a pain - many parents ring or text their kids in the middle of lessons! My school has a zero mobile policy but removing one from a child who is snapchatting in the lesson results (90% of the time) in a parental
Complaint as the child 'needs' the phone.

Society has lost its priorities. Education is not just what happens in a classroom, it is not what happens on a two week all inclusive holiday in Spain, during term time. Education is about being able to communicate, respect and understand. Taking away a child's right to this by shoving them in front of an iPad to shut them up so the adult can enjoy themselves is bad parenting.

I am a teacher. A bloody good one most of the time.'I care. I work hard. I plan lessons that should engage and inspire. But I can't compete against flappy bird or snapchat. I can't compete against the kid whose
Parent tells them that teachers can't make him do detention. I can't compete against the kid who has the attitude that it is his entitled right to behave how he wants. I can't compete against the kid whose parent tells them school is useless and knows more about education as they once went to school ....

Ultimately I should not have to compete at all. I should be able to teach and share my Passion and knowledge. I am, however, mostly dealing with poor behaviour of some individuals who do not appear to value anything in life other than their possessions.

I'm in a union still but not in a unionised job. I work with offenders and substance misusers. I've only been reduced to tears once in over 12 years and I don't blame the client for that.

It was made very clear to me from day one in the job that at no point does anyone have to put up with being threatened or abused. Clients are warned or banned from services if that happens.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 12-Jun-16 12:02:09

cory

"She says she is spoken to rudely on most days, usually by adult professionals (coincidentally, in the teaching profession)

Only by teachers?"

It's because of where she works: most of the adult customers are academic teaching staff.

By academic teaching staff, do you mean lecturers?

pieceofpurplesky, I agree with most of what you said, both about teaching and parenting. (I've done both.) We want the same thing, at a guess: respect, from society at large as well as from pupils.

While waiting for society to develop, though, there are some things you may have to fight for. The right not to be abused at work, the right to be allowed to do your (wonderfully important) job without being put off by children misbehaving, and all the rest that goes with that. The enforcement of these rights, as things are at present, will not simply come about because you and I want it. Nor can we rely on education ministers or civil servants to see the light. It will take a struggle.

If all teachers in a school join one union, decide at a branch meeting to back each other, and refuse to work with anyone who doesn't back up their colleagues, then that school might work a bit better regarding teachers' rights as employees. (And more than likely serendipitously thereby improve the educational achievements of the pupils at that school.) And if two schools do the same ... and, well, yes it's probably pie in the sky. But I've seen it at work (although not recently in GB).

I wish teachers around GB would sort this out somehow. I worry about my grandchildren

I do agree, most, of it is parents have created this themselves, in creating self indulgent little Princes and Princesses, who do not even value education themselves, I am shocked at the way some parents treat education and teachers, this is of course passed down.

I don't think that the vast majority of parents don't respect teachers. Sure, there are some, but a lot of this impression comes from sensationalist click-bait type headlines in the red tops. And of course teachers, on an individual level, tend to be forced to deal with this type of parent, while not having much contact with those who do respect teachers. A survey from not too long ago showed that Teachers are one of the most trusted groups in society.

I think that if teachers tried to make a stand about classroom behaviour, many parents would support them. The trouble is, how could it be organised? Why don't unions want to spearhead such a stand? I get the feeling they aren't really interested. I quoted the NUT website on the causes of disruptive behaviour in the classroom earlier, and it struck me that they were primarily interested in blaming the government, rather than trying to actually support teachers with practical policies on strong, central behaviour policies, backed by the ultimate sanction of permanent exclusion.

And some of that has got to be down to the fact that "discipline" is viewed by many non-teaching educationalists (including some of those running unions) as a dirty word, because they want to believe that bad behaviour is primarily due to boring lessons or children with SEND or problems at home.

I realise I should have specified that dd's rude customers were in higher education - or better still, not mentioned their job at all. Apologies to all teachers.

But main point still remains- in a service job you will not last long if you do not keep smiling and serving the customer, rude or otherwise. And there are plenty of jobs which we expect people to do though we must realise that they will get badly treated from time to time: police officers, traffic wardens, nursing staff with dementia patients etc.

However, that is no way to run a school. Pupils unlike customers can and should be disciplined, and teachers should have the back-up of management.

Nobelgiraffe

Have you actually read my posts or just zeroed in on just that one?

I doubt it.

I certainly am not telling teachers how to do their jobs. I clearly stated that the system as it stands is not fit for purpose, it ties teachers up in reams of red tape, doesn't allow them to do their jobs to their full potential.

In no way are any of my comments an indictment against teachers - the system is royally fucked.

And the back-up of parents. We are not all "oh little Johnnie can't do wrong"-parents. As a matter of fact, most of us aren't.

Recent conversation with DS who copes with at least 6 children who play up all day everyday - very experienced teacher

DS - schools boring
Me - no you've switched off and aren't listening
DS - Jack threw a chair today and Miss cried! Is something wrong with her? She's crap
Me - I'd cry if I had a chair thrown at me - where's jack now?
DS - he's gone home to play on his Xbox, can I throw a chair and play my Xbox ?

Me - No I'd sell your Xbox and give the school the money for extra resources
DS that's not fair
Me Well it will be fair when you get a well paid job and Jack is still sat home in his Xbox.
Then we get on to Charlotte -
Charlotte called miss a bitch - she got to play in reception all afternoon ....

And so it goes on

Yes, I have, frog

You have suggested that kids are pissing around because the system is broken and if only teachers would offer (or be able to offer) engaging activities (such as crochet) tailored to the little disaffected darlings, then the kids would not only learn maths, but behaviour problems would disappear.

No wanting the kids to be responsible for their own behaviour. No expectation that they will behave like decent human beings, treat other with respect and get on with what they are meant to do. It's all someone else's fault.

And the back-up of parents. We are not all "oh little Johnnie can't do wrong"-parents. As a matter of fact, most of us aren't.
Absolutely agree. But many (most!) of the little Johnnie's who cause all this disruption do have parents with this attitude.

Just racking my brain thinking of exceptions, and there aren't many, other than the parents who are just totally disengaged with school and are impossible to contact. Of course there are a minority who support the school and know their child is a nightmare and don't know what more to do, but not many.