To think that students shouldn't be making teachers cry FFS!.

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

...and that the school system is essentially fucked because teachers have too many pressures and are treated like crap?

DS is not good at Maths. He's not badly behaved but is not good at Maths hence he is stuck in a set where the kids tend to be badly behaved.

The teacher is obviously not a native English speaker but DS says he is perfectly understandable. His classmates however are constantly teasing this poor man about his English. It became so bad today that the teacher actually cried and then lost it and yelled at the kids that he spoke 5 languages and they only spoke one.

I feel so sorry for this guy. He must be at the end of his tether but how can he possibly teach and be effective with 30 students, all the marking, planning and politics. I feel like it's an impossible task.

But what can the government/society do to make teachers' lives easier, especially when you consider the drop out rate or is it just inevitable that with so little money and so many children to educate that the school system is essentially fucked?

I work in a junior school - these kids start young - parents have no idea that the level of behaviour in class is awful.

We have a good head teacher - we have behavior letters that each child writes about their behaviour - 'I swore at Jake today' 'I hit Susan' etc - these are sent home for the parent signing to say they'be read it - It may ask the parent to book an appointment to discuss - The head follows it up if it hasn't happened. These children and parents are given a plan of action - ie what will happen if the behaviour is repeated.

DD is in some classes with students who think they are untouchable - my DC value their education because I have taught them it gives them choices in the outside world - whether they chose to have a high flying career or be a bin man - they will have that choice

I think maybe it's the parents who need educating and a good school will inform the parent s every single time they are a pain - DD s hools texts for even exclusion and letter home for every detention -

They need engaging in activities that gives them a sense of accomplishment.

If the school had a strong behaviour policy, enforced by senior staff, which ensured good behaviour in classroom, it's possible that they might gain "a sense of accomplishment" by actually learning to do some maths. Which is what they are there for, what the OP's child is there for, and which might be of some use to them later in life.

I think you cannot force a child to learn if the learning environment they are in doesn't suit them.

Behaviour policies are important - but you cannot fit a square peg into a round hole unless you have the tools and resources and support to re-shape the hole - which seems an almost impossible thing for teachers to achieve within the current system.

Oh yes noblegiraffe

I have clear memories of trying to get a space in someone's terribly busy detention schedule.

kesstrel well said.
If the pupils know there is no robust behaviour policy and they can do as they please the teachers' hands are tied and any well behaved pupil wanting to learn hasn't got a hope in hell.

Someone mentioned group dynamics above. This is an important part of the psychology of bad behaviour in classrooms. Some of it will be about children showing off for their mates, egging each other on, being part of the gang. While some badly behaved children may be "square pegs in round holes", plenty won't be. A lot of badly behaved children actually prefer it when the school provides firm discipline and high expectations of behaviour. (Although this should also be combined with a good pastoral system to provide support for those who are actually in need of it.)

And even square pegs in round holes need to learn respect for others, both their teachers and the children they share the classroom with who actually want to learn.

I hate the thought of this, but cctv cameras in every classroom (at secondary level) could be the norm in the future.

Would a student be so quick to throw a chair or use threatening language towards a teacher if they knew it was being caught on camera?

Agree with the group dynamic effect. It is surprising how many of these children are lovely on a 1:1 basis.

Iresent my own well behaved children having to share classes with them

Me too! MY DC think these children behave like idiots - no cool or clever - just idiots

Did anyone read this guardian article? Some interesting points made:
gu.com/p/4kjd4/fb

I don't believe that looking at behaviour from different angles and coming up with creative solutions (again, teachers are somewhat tied by a system not fit for purpose) means that children shouldn't learn about respect. In fact I think respect, as a two-way street is fundamental to a child's learning environment, Kesstrel.

As parents and taxpayers, we should be demanding that all schools have proper behaviour systems, enforced by the schools' senior leadership.
I agree, although this is only half the solution. You need solid behaviour systems AND supportive parents. One without the other doesn't work.

I know, some are putting the blame on teachers, too soft, can't hack it etc, when the responsibility should be with the schools and children.

"They need engaging in activities that gives them a sense of accomplishment."

Like what? Nature walks? Collage-making? Playing with iPads? They are supposed to be doing maths. Maths is hard work--most of it is not particularly "fun."

You need solid behaviour systems AND supportive parents. One without the other doesn't work.

I'm assuming you mean parents who support the behaviour system? Yes, that's important. However, I would argue that ultimately schools need the power to exclude children who won't behave and whose parents support their bad behaviour. I suspect this would cut down on some parents' uncooperativeness (like their children, they know there are no sanctions); and where it didn't, then there needs to be more PRU units.

However, I would argue that ultimately schools need the power to exclude children who won't behave and whose parents support their bad behaviour.
Schools do have the power to exclude? Unless I'm missing your point. Do you mean more exclusions?

The kids who end up excluded are far more likely to have complex home backgrounds, experience harm to trauma in the past, at higher risk of CSE... There are safeguarding concerns around excluding children which we have to take into account. Staff and parents often say 'why hasn't X been excluded for that', but it isn't that straightforward.

TheNewStatesman

There are plenty of ways to learn maths, including on nature walks, iPads, collage making (a really great way to learn maths) cooking, crocheting, playing - and a much longer list. The teaching methods and opportunities are almost endless and flexible - unfortunately the current system allows for little creative license.

I was in a class at school that regularly made teachers cry, i think 2 of our teachers had breakdowns, others refused to teach us, I'm not proud of how we treated our teachers, i was not the ring leader or anywhere near the worst but I joined in, as did everyone. We were basically a class of little shits.
We weren't aweful, or we didn't think we were, no violence, shouting etc. Just careful calculated behaviour by a few students designed to target teachers they saw as weak. It started out as about 4 or 5 students, but they disrupted lessons so much that the cleverer students got bored and joined in. And then so did everyone else.

The thing is is that there were lots of sanctions for us, so many in fact that they became ineffectual. We were in detention every break, every lunch. Certain pupils were almost constantly in isolation, we had the head constantly coming into lessons but we just didn't care, we had a reputation for being naughty and wanted to keep it. Teachers expected us to be naughty and so treated us like we were badly behaved before we did anything and i think that didn't help as we thought why bother.

There were lessons we behaved in and those were lessons where the teachers didn't seem to care, they didn't constantly sanction us, they treated us like adults and acted bored with our behaviour i guess? I know this wouldn't have worked with every class but ours was designed to break teachers. The ones that acted like they didn't care weren't worth breaking, and they treated us like adults which i think helped as we didn't feel naughty.
You could tell the teachers who just thought we needed fun, engaging lessons and we would target them because they seemed weak.
The worst bit was the ring leaders parents were both teachers, i cant imagine he didn't ha

nature walks, iPads, collage making (a really great way to learn maths) cooking, crocheting

I thought you were going to give a list of activities that would engage the average disaffected teenager who is too busy flipping the Vs at the teacher to do some sums.

Crochet. FFS.

No need to be rude, Nobelgiraffe.

I said the list is endless.

crazywriter
Teachers need to toughen up.

No, the troublemakers should be dealt with in a suitable manner.

No kids shouldn't be making the teachers cry but it isn't just the kids at fault there.

It is entirely the kids fault, or are you abdicating them of responsibility for their actions? How far would you like to take the victim blaming?

No need to be rude, Nobelgiraffe

Really, frog? Because I see someone trying to tell us how to do our jobs who doesn't have a clue. Zero.

Your list isn't endless, it doesn't actually start. Nature walks with kids who will abscond behind the gym to smoke. Crochet with kids who use compasses to tattoo themselves and others. Cooking in a classroom with zero cooking equipment (do you think these kids behave themselves in food tech?).

Teachers should be respected by pupils and parents.
As a profession it should be held in higher regard by society.
In my opinion there is no more important work than educating our young. But graduates can get paid more in almost any other profession.
I'm not a teacher, but I am a governor and i'm horrified by the way some kids think it's acceptable to behave in school.