To think that students shouldn't be making teachers cry FFS!.

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

...and that the school system is essentially fucked because teachers have too many pressures and are treated like crap?

DS is not good at Maths. He's not badly behaved but is not good at Maths hence he is stuck in a set where the kids tend to be badly behaved.

The teacher is obviously not a native English speaker but DS says he is perfectly understandable. His classmates however are constantly teasing this poor man about his English. It became so bad today that the teacher actually cried and then lost it and yelled at the kids that he spoke 5 languages and they only spoke one.

I feel so sorry for this guy. He must be at the end of his tether but how can he possibly teach and be effective with 30 students, all the marking, planning and politics. I feel like it's an impossible task.

But what can the government/society do to make teachers' lives easier, especially when you consider the drop out rate or is it just inevitable that with so little money and so many children to educate that the school system is essentially fucked?

The way I've always looked at it is, it is my job to parent my children, not to perfect the school curriculum. If my dc used bad teaching or boredom or lack of interest as an excuse for playing up in school, my first priority would be to deal with the bad behaviour because that is my job. I don't think I am an exception here. The problem is that it only takes one offspring of the other type of parent to ruin the experience of a whole class. Their influence is disproportionate and that makes them seem representative of "parents of today" or "society of today".

But many (most!) of the little Johnnie's who cause all this disruption do have parents with this attitude.

It's possible many of them might change their tune, however, if little Johnny were to be faced with permanent exclusion to a PRU, however. These parents behave like this, in part, because they know they can get away with it - just like their offspring. (It's also possible that Little Johnny might actually do better in a PRU. )

apple1992 Sun 12-Jun-16 13:11:45

"Absolutely agree. But many (most!) of the little Johnnie's who cause all this disruption do have parents with this attitude."

Not sure I agree with this actually. In my own and dc's experience, a fair amount of disruption was caused by pupils with undiagnosed (later diagnosed) SN, SN whose needs were not being met, MH issues, or dead or seriously ill parents.

Their influence is disproportionate and that makes them seem representative of "parents of today" or "society of today".

Agree with this.

Then you have misunderstood me, Nobelgiraffe because I CLEARLY said that.

a) teachers don't get enough support - lack of funding, lack of parental understanding, government sticking it's beak in in some personal crusade to leave it's 'mark' on education, overcrowding, lack of a good behaviour policy - all that comes under the umbrella of 'lack of support' that I stated

b) I said respect is fundamental - and it's also a two way street - for a classroom.

So no, I have not said that behaviour is everyone else's fault - but neither is it solely the child's. It's more complicated than pinning one single issue into the 'bad behaviour' cork-board and thinking it will work just because it works for Johnny.

And really 'disaffected darlings'?

That's a pretty flippant way of describing kids who are troubled/disruptive/downright dangerous and will likely go on to a miserable adulthood because our broken system can't get its act together and look at the whole complicated picture of behaviour ( but then again, how will our increasingly privatised prisons, courts and probation services ever make any money if there are less failed (not by the teaching profession as a whole) kids who end up offending as adults?)

Froginapan what's your teaching experience?

I don't see why that's relevant. And I don't see why any teacher would think from my posts that I'n saying that the teaching profession as a whole is at fault here because I'm not.

They do an incredibly difficult job, are paid less than their worth, have to deal with all sorts of ridiculous government educational policy bollocks that sucks their time away from their actual job of teaching, end up working through their holidays, have to deal with neurotic parents....and the list goes on.

Why are teachers left dealing with the effects of profoundly difficult home/MH/SN situations in classes of 30, though?
I'm so, completely, in favour of keeping children in mainstream education but why, why, why does 'mainstream' have to be 1:30, or 1;30 with perhaps just one TA?

Cory actually you are wrong. It is not the SEND pupils that cause the biggest issues in schools. It is the middle, Spoilt kids who want it all their own way.

And factor into that the over-stretched SS and children's MH services and you have this bizarre situation where teachers are expected to teach, 1:30, in a situation where teaching itself is low down on the list of skills required for dealing with a large group of children. A proportion of which, sometimes a significant proportion if which, will have significant and unmet needs.
It's a very strange situation.

I worked in a school that had an inclusion unit. He idea was that when pupils were not responding to the teacher following the behaviour policy, they would be sent to the unit with work to do until the end of the lesson.

Well, guess what. They agreed between them, which lessons they wanted to get out of, got themselves sent to the unit, invariably without work and proceeded to make life as miserable as possible for the teacher in charge. The unit itself was at the end of a corridor, with nothing nearby and no phone.

I hated those lessons.

purple; I would wholeheartedly agree with your last post "It is the middle, Spoilt kids who want it all their own way.".
The first school I taught in was classed by the local press as the 'hell hole' it was based in an area where poverty was seen as the norm. It was the only school that would take in students who were transferred from other schools as we were the only ones to have space and our SEN ratio was the highest in the city; the behaviour at that school (whilst not perfect) was not about disrupting lessons, being rude to teachers etc but it was more generally fallouts between themselves

When I left to join a 'nice' school (as it was closer to home) that had a waiting list for entry into every single year group I was amazed at the disruption from so many students who seem to be hell bent on wanting to prove their popularity by being the class clown, on thinking they can talk to another human as if they are not worthy to be shit on their shoes.
This 'nice' school does not want to lose it's OFSTED rating or to have a reputation of poor behaviour so things are swept under the carpet.
The turnover of staff in recent years has become ridiculous especially knowing that at my previous school we only tended to lose staff once every couple of years

It seems like there is a lack of resources, and a lack of support or behaviour policy by the school. In an ideal world, there would be more specialist schools which cater for those with emotional behavioural problems, and learning difficulties; so that they are in a more supportive environment which meets their needs; and others are not disrupted by their behaviour. Actually I was a TA about 16 years ago in a tough comprehensive school, there was one boy, who was very disruptive, in the end he had a statement and went to a special school for children with learning difficulties. As someone has pointed out, through my school experience, some do find learning hard, maths is not enjoyable for somebody who finds maths hard and does not understand it. As a result, some of the behaviours are from those who just cannot understand and have already been lost early on in the lesson. Yes you do get those who have been pampered by their parents, who probably did not do well in education themselves, so pass that down to their kids. Its a cycle.

I think there should be zero tolerance in the classroom and in school. Early intervention if a child does have suspected SN. DD 9 ASD Learning difficulties, went initially to a mainstream infant school. She found it difficult to cope, and was distressed most of the time, hitting, biting. The headteacher, who also had a dd with ASD recognised there could be something causing this, she was very switched on. She told me that dd was not naughty, that she was a very unhappy and distressed little girl. She applied for a statement for her for extra support, this was not enough for her, and the HT told me that this was not the right environment for ther, and we looked at a specialist school for ASD, which we moved dd too, and she is thriving and happy, and achieving academically too. Not all schools are on the ball, and the child with the problem in infant school has just fallen under the radar and allowed to coast through education, eventally becoming a disaffected teen.

pieceofpurplesky, I did not say statistically or nationally: I did say "in my own and my dc's experience"- I appreciate that this may vary from case to case

and I did not mean it as any kind of criticism: the children I am thinking of had horrendous issues- all I meant was, this was a situation which was nobody's fault

I quite understand that spoilt children are a massive problem; though I cannot claim much experience of materially spoilt children, as I have never lived in that kind of area

The system is totally fucked up.

Teachers do a really difficult job with an ever decreasing amount of resources and support.

I saw the writing on the wall ages ago with this bloody awful Govt. I allowed just one year to see if my DS (autistic) would settle into mainstream secondary, He didn't....he struggled in the bottom set where there are a sizeable minority of kids just killing time until 3pm. DS couldn't cope with them any more than the poor teacher could.

After six months of it I went to war with the LEA and my DS now attends a special school. I feel for the kids like DS who are left behind and having to cope with it all.

Materially spoilt children are indeed a problem when they are brought up by parents who give them everything, except boundaries, this create huge issues in school.

I quite understand that spoilt children are a massive problem; though I cannot claim much experience of materially spoilt children, as I have never lived in that kind of area
I don't think it's about wher you live; I work on a massive council estate where poverty is rife - these kids can still be materially spoilt.

In short, if you're treated badly at work, gang together with your colleagues and say 'We won't accept this treatment.' Be prepared to fight as a group. As an individual, you have no power; as a group, you do. Teachers, take note!

Teachers have been saying this for years, (see response from another poster upthread). Teachers have also sad what won't work, yet when it is put through and proved to not work its the teachers fault. Teachers have also said that changing things every couple of years won't work work yet what do successive governments do?

This 'nice' school does not want to lose it's OFSTED rating or to have a reputation of poor behaviour so things are swept under the carpet.

Perhaps Ofsted should switch to surprise visits to schools, in order to monitor behaviour only. They could also get every teacher's address, and post them surveys on behaviour and how well implemented the school's behaviour policy is, ensure teachers can reply anonymously.

I suspect this might be more helpful in raising achievement than the type of often pointless, or even damaging, inspections they conduct at the moment.

Cory I think the stuff you witness is probably not the norm.
Kids with SEND have provision. Their behaviour issues (if any)) is known and handled.
It is the materially spoilt kids - even from the poorest backgrounds - who have everything they want except time and social education from home.

Piece

Provision is dependant on:

The school actually picking up on the problem (18 months I politely and repeatedly asked for an Ed Psych assessment only to be told repeatedly that my child did not have SEN - funny that because he scored 10/10 in his ADOS assessment , has a 'spiked' profile from a partial Ed Psych assessment that I strong armed the LA into doing, and is so obviously ASD) and then actual proper provision to be put into place (I've lost count of how many parents ended pulling their SEN children out of that school)

It is the materially spoilt kids - even from the poorest backgrounds - who have everything they want except time and social education from home

Absolutely

Lots of SN pupils, and many, many more with emotional, social and mental health issues, do not have provision, at any level.
It's a ridiculous situation.
Nevertheless, despite teacher burn-out, I guess it is, just about, cost-effective to keep the situation as it is.

Frog I am a pastoral lead in a very average secondary school. - I was answering. PPs comments that it is SEND pupils that cause the issues. As a teacher I know and understand the needs of these pupils - what I don't have is a list of pupils who are lazy entitled troublemakers who want everything to be 'fun'

post hem surveys on behaviour and how well implemented the school's behaviour policy is, ensure teachers can reply anonymously

Can they post to parents as well - and not just those carefully selected ones?