...to think that the childless by choice are judged harshly?

[SadlyNotNormal]

I have a step son with Asperger's, hence being on here in the first place (in case you wondered).

My question is, even if you don't think you want kids, does that change when you actually have them? Do you magically want to become a parent even if you had doubts before? I ask this most sincerely, as this is the impression my friends with children are currently giving me and I'm curious. When I say that I understand those who don't want children (because of the work involved) I usually get the stock "oh but they're worth it" response which drives me nuts, because the implication is that everyone should have children, because they're so wonderful. Now don't get me wrong, I'm strongly in favour of people having kids if they really want them and always have been. If you really want kids and you are able to, then of course have them. I don't feel as though it goes both ways though. The childless-by-choice are judged harshly (I think) by 'society' / the media as being selfish and I hate that. Surely having children is the same as anything else in life - a choice, a 'project' to pursue or not depending on your desires (if you are fortunate enough to be able to have them)?

I've known since I was 12 that I didn't want them. It's not the idea of childbirth or the sleepless nights or the dirty nappies that bothers me (I was an au pair for a while so have dealt with some pretty intense baby / toddler stuff). It's the thought of having more freedom / money / time to pursue my creative projects in my life that makes my heart soar.

Do you think that more people regret having children than is talked about?

Thanks (in advance) for letting me rant on here. It means that I won't bring it up with friends. I'm tired of hearing how wonderful it is to have children when people know full well I don't want any more (my step son is great and I'm glad to have him; he is also Enough). Would love to hear your thoughts. I hope I haven't caused any offence with my questions.

BadLad " Instead there is sometimes talk as if having kids us some revelation that I haven't yet seen the light of, and if I don't have them, the day of regretting that decision is inevitably going to come one day."

ah, in addition to harsh judgement I've had this too. Some people have moved from harsh judgement to the "you'll regret it and I'm worried about you".

One of the reasons I enjoyed turning 40 was it had been a landmark age - perhaps not so much now - when people accepted that if you didn't want a partner or kids, "you'll change your mind later in life" - well, later had arrived and I considered those two things to be major contributing factors in my happiness.

I still occasionally get people asking "don't you want someone to grow old with" but when I point out how unsuited I am to coupled up life now, when in (fingers crossed) good health etc, they do start to realise how crazy it is. Also my parents' friends now include many widows and frankly some of them are happier. Some aren't of course, and miss their partners terribly, but again, not applicable to someone who was not suited to coupledom initially.

You have my sympathies, Writeforfun1. I can well believe women have it worse with people banging on. My wife certainly does.

There is nothing wrong with being childless. I have DC who don't want kids and I think good luck to them. I wouldn't dream of saying that they might change their mind or that they might regret it. That would be rude.

My kids are now adults and I absolutely love them to bits and think they are all lovely people but I could imagine not having kids too. I'd just have a different lifestyle. I have always been more than just a Mother IYSWIM (although nothing wrong with being super motherly either if that's what floats your boat )

Im not a big agnst'er so I don't think I would be bothered by comments if I were childless. Although, it's hard to know for sure.

I think it's great if you know you want kids and great if you know you don't want kids. I'm a bit more about about people who take risks with contraception and accidentally have kids IYSWIM. Having kids should be something you give a lot of thought to.

Thanks BadLad.

Things that stick out particularly are a colleague saying "what do you mean, you don't want children? I thought you were a caring person!"

and an ex-friend saying "you wouldn't even date a man with children? But what if they needed a mother? You wouldn't care? Doesn't that make you a bitch?"

I think there are some people who just can't understand that others might not feel exactly the same way as them about children (or indeed, about anything else).

I don't think it's judgment exactly, more incomprehension - their subconscious is going "I wanted children, all my friends wanted children, so obviously you will too".

angelo Same as I don't want a dog or a holiday to Martello or a Ford Focus.

It's a little more fundamental than that though. Homo sapien has a drive to procreate, the human race would not be here - indeed neither would you- if we did not have children.
It's not a lifestyle choice, it is an imperative for our species to survive.

It is an imperative for our species to survive therefore it's good that some people want to have and do have children (although we as a species have wreaked havoc with the planet)

It is also fine that some of us don't have or don't want to have children.

I agree minipie about the incomprehension. But it would be nice the uncomprehending parents would take a moment to put themselves in someone else's shoes to see we are not all the same. (Of course this is only some people- this thread shows many don't judge and do try to understand which is heartening

Hi OP, I'm childless by choice & circumstance, in so much as if i'd met an amazing man and been able to offer my children a fantastic life then I would have gone ahead and had some but I never did. Been proposed to twice but never married (nearly 50 now) , I thought it would be selfish to raise them alone with little or no support (parents dead, tiny extended family, moved around a lot for work so few friends etc).

I'm lucky though in having a great career and high income and the freedom to do what I want when I want so can be fulfilled in other ways (as others have said, extended travel, self development through career etc.) I'm not so sure I'd feel this way if I were working somewhere on minimum wage as my life would be restricted by income.

Over the years, I've had many mothers approach me and say they envy my freedom and childless state and that, given their time again, they wouldn't have children as the burden is so great and they were completely unprepared for it.

I'm sure people do judge me but they're sensible enough not to do it to my face. for what it's worth, it gets easier the older you get and I'm lucky to be surrounded by family, colleagues and friends who have also chosen the child-free life. As other posters have said, I have little to talk to mothers and fathers about as their children are so central to their life.

I do think however that it's becoming more and more common to find childless people among the parents so things will get easier.

My God mother is child less by choice and i am not sure if she has ever been judged for not having kids, she how ever is fairly judgemental of women who have kids!! For her the thought of having kids is so horrific she genuinely can not understand how anyone would want to have them or be pleased to be pregnant

Childfree by choice here too. I'm so glad I'm now in my 40s as most of the comments have stopped. Although like Writeforfun1 I now get the even worse "but you must regret it? Children are such a blessing" type instead. My stock answer if I'm being polite is "not at all, I love my life thanks". Its always been women that have been completely uncomprehending and extraordinarily bitchy about it too. Men I find just accepted it.

Interestingly my close friends are all childfree by choice too. We all have different reasons for why we made the decision, none of us regret it in the slightest.

katemiddletons three of my closest friends met their other halves in their mid 30s, two of them used match.com and one of them POF. They all have babies now (late 30s) so just wanted to say it is possible! I am 37 and single, I had my 10yo dd on my own and although I have no regrets it has its challenges!!

I would never say anything flippant to a childless woman/or couple about 'when are you going to start a family then?' Firstly, there could well be some upsetting history I don't know of, but if they are childless by choice then they shouldn't have to justify themselves to anyone. I'm an Atheist and if religious people started asking me 'when am I going to find God?...because he is so wonderful and you are missing out etc etc' I'd be seriously narked off.

I don't want children for the same reasons stated in the OP - I want my freedom, money, sleep(!) and time to enjoy whatever DH and I want to do without a child restricting it. I decided when I was about 13 that it wasn't for me and I've never wavered on that. I love babies but I don't like children, and they are only babies for a very short amount of time.

I have one friend who didn't want children, had them anyway because she assumed she'd change her mind when they arrived and absolutely didn't. In her darkest moments she will admit that she should never have had them, wishes she hadn't and that they have 100% changed her life for the worse.

Now that I'm married I've had loads of people ask when babies will be on the cards but luckily there is no pressure from our parents. I told my mum (the least maternal woman on the planet) that I didn't want kids and she said, "Good, stick to your guns. Having kids is shit!"

'and an ex-friend saying "you wouldn't even date a man with children? But what if they needed a mother? You wouldn't care? Doesn't that make you a bitch?"'

Dear god. The rudeness and lack of thinking is almost funny. What a very stupid person. Very glad they're an ex-friend

I'm also looking forward to turning 40 (I'm 36 now) - I'm certainly not wishing the years away but it feel like it will be a turning point, and an opportunity to leave all the baby angst behind me

It's not a lifestyle choice, it is an imperative for our species to survive

But reproducing doesn't make you a better person.

And we must acknowledge that there's a helluva lot of guff written & talked (even on here) which implies or says straight out that parents are better people than non-parents.

I once heard a politician say about his opponent "How can you trust a man that doesn't have children?"

Whatever choices you make some people will judge you for them positively and some people will judge you for them negatively. On the whole most people wont care very much.

People tend to notice more when they feel they have been judged negatively.

As for not having a lot in common with people who have taken the other path - I have things in common with lots of people and things we dont have in common. As I work full time I find that I have lots of things in common with the people with whom I work. Some of our life experiences are different and some very similar.

Basically, in a waffley way, I am say you will find what you look for.

As a another childfree by choice man, I can absolutely go along with the OP and others who have had plenty of shit comments over the years.

On an online dating site (where I was always clear in my profile about being childfree) someone - whom I had not messaged - contacted me to say "fuck off you wanker, you're obviously just here to get laid because all decent people want children".

I had another message from someone else (again, whom I had not messaged first) who said "You look really nice and we have similar interests, would you really not consider having a child with the right person as it's a dealbreaker for me?" So I replied "Would you consider NOT having a child with the right person?" She did, to her credit, come back and apologise having suddenly understood what she'd said.

Even people who have known me 18 years still come out with "you'll be lonely when you're older" or "you'll change your mind when you meet the right woman".

As for the former, yeah, coz there's no older people who never see their kids or get dumped in nursing homes are there?

I don't want children. I've known since I was about 7 that I don't want children. I hated children even when I was one

There are a few different approaches to child-free-by-choice people I think;

Vocal Judgers: Those who judge and make comments out loud to your face. I've never personally experienced this.

Silent Judgers: Those who are judging you but don't say anything to your face. For example, DH has said that growing up his mum was of the opinion that people who don't have children through choice are real weirdos. So I know she judges but silently.

The Dismissers: Those who dismiss your decision far too easily with ridiculous comments like 'You'll change your mind'. These are the people that get me most angry. I hate these people. I want to be offensive to these people.

The Minimisers: Those who accept your decision (unlike The Dismissers) but minimise it through saying things like 'But they're worth it' or 'It's the most rewarding job in the world'. These people are usually parents themselves and I suspect they are trying to justify their own decision to have children! For me, these kind of comments are completely unconnected to my decision not to have children. I'm sure raising children is worth it but it doesn't mean I want to do it. I'm sure hand rearing polar bear cubs in the Arctic is worth the cold and dark and risk of death but doesn't mean I want to do it. I usually head tilt at these people and just say 'Mmm, do you think so?'

Best not to have children unless you want them as the world is overpopulated

I'm going to leave the biological imperative thing because that's a whole other thread.

something that has changed as I've got older is that I feel very sorry for people who realise they made a mistake and are unhappy with it. It's interesting because as a younger person, I often just thought "oh well, you should have thought it through".

being a childfree person means you're more likely to hear bitter truths from people and many do seem to have thunk it through carefully and still really regret it. I feel now that this must be such a deep pit of despair - well a bottomless one really - and I've seen the kind of misery it causes and the fact that it can't be repaired. There aren't many other decisions in life that can cause lifelong misery so I do now feel really bad for those people.

perhaps also when I was younger I thought those people would feel better after the really awful awful awful stage of childrearing but now of course I realise they may be approached for that again with grandchildren... there's the burden of having left someone in the world...maybe I've gone all bleeding heart but I just feel so sorry for them.

Kurtsey I recognise lots of your categories however you've left one out:

The patronising sympathisers who assume your life must be totally void of meaning and lacking in love. Because we can only find meaning and love through reproduction

Also forgot

The Explainers: Those who accept your decision but feel the need to explain it and usually want to explain it in their own terms. This serves to reproduce the idea that being childfree has to be justified and also reproduces the limited ways of justifying child-free-ness. For example, DM will explain to people that I don't want children because I am dedicated to my career. I don't understand why DM has to give a reason at all. I'm not dedicated to my career. I love my job but that's not why I don't want children. Yet this is much more acceptable than her saying 'Kurtsey doesn't want children because she's a miserable bastard who doesn't like children but does like huge pots of money'

oh while I'm thinking about this, an interesting recent moment of validation..my best friend is also CF but used to think it really bizarre that I wouldn't date man with children. Tbh she also thought I'd change my mind re not wanting a partner.

anyway, she went quiet on it after becoming an aunt....now many years later, she has said to me that she understands why I'd not date someone with children either - it would have been utterly pointless.

It's funny because I heard so much "when your friends have children you will want them" but actually it made me worse. I now actively ask people if we can meet without the kids because it's such a waste of an afternoon. Then again, with friends with kids ranging 7-17 I think I've done my fair share of listening to toddlers shriek.

I've also got a couple of friends who were TTC then after close friends or relatives had them and they absorbed a little more of what it was really going to be like, they stopped!

sorry I missed out a bit there - I think a few years of being an aunt is really underlining how much of a pain it all is, hence she now gets why I wouldn't have got involved with it in dating.