...to think that the childless by choice are judged harshly?

[SadlyNotNormal]

I have a step son with Asperger's, hence being on here in the first place (in case you wondered).

My question is, even if you don't think you want kids, does that change when you actually have them? Do you magically want to become a parent even if you had doubts before? I ask this most sincerely, as this is the impression my friends with children are currently giving me and I'm curious. When I say that I understand those who don't want children (because of the work involved) I usually get the stock "oh but they're worth it" response which drives me nuts, because the implication is that everyone should have children, because they're so wonderful. Now don't get me wrong, I'm strongly in favour of people having kids if they really want them and always have been. If you really want kids and you are able to, then of course have them. I don't feel as though it goes both ways though. The childless-by-choice are judged harshly (I think) by 'society' / the media as being selfish and I hate that. Surely having children is the same as anything else in life - a choice, a 'project' to pursue or not depending on your desires (if you are fortunate enough to be able to have them)?

I've known since I was 12 that I didn't want them. It's not the idea of childbirth or the sleepless nights or the dirty nappies that bothers me (I was an au pair for a while so have dealt with some pretty intense baby / toddler stuff). It's the thought of having more freedom / money / time to pursue my creative projects in my life that makes my heart soar.

Do you think that more people regret having children than is talked about?

Thanks (in advance) for letting me rant on here. It means that I won't bring it up with friends. I'm tired of hearing how wonderful it is to have children when people know full well I don't want any more (my step son is great and I'm glad to have him; he is also Enough). Would love to hear your thoughts. I hope I haven't caused any offence with my questions.

Kitty Oh yes, definitely those people!

There is a lot of judginess about, parents with only one child get judged quite a bit too. Make peace with yourself and your decision and you'll be fine. Your worst judge is always yourself.

I know 5 older ladies who chose not to have children. 4 of them now regret it as they are alone with very little family left.

Piratepete "4 of them now regret it as they are alone with very little family left."

I find that strange though - I mean if you really regretted it, you would regret it regardless surely? Also, did they think extra family was going to appear from somewhere..?

Pirate but as I said earlier, having children in no way guarantees not being alone with very little family left. I'm an only child, so once my parents die, it will just be me (been single 6 years). I have friends but yes I get lonely and yes I would love a partner but not at the cost of agreeing to have a child that I don't want and who didn't ask to be born. I know plenty of people who are now "older" who have kids and grandkids who hardly ever see them because either they don't get on, or they live far away, or their kids have their own lives, or the kids just actually give a damn about their parents. I know someone who is a warden in a sheltered accommodation complex and someone who works in a retirement home and both say the number of older people who do not get, or hardly ever get visited, by their kids and/or grandkids would horrify most decent people.

Lol, that happens to childed people too.

I visit a 90-something great aunt in her care home. Her three children don't bother. I work full time, they are retired and live nearer the home than I do. No valid excuses; they just prefer golf, travel, relaxing. But without me she would be quite lonely. Having kids is no guarantee ask any eldercare specialist.

Still "both say the number of older people who do not get, or hardly ever get visited, by their kids and/or grandkids would horrify most decent people."

that's funny, it's another area where I have no judgement. I'm only still in London because of my folks and it's awful. If people live away from their parents or don't like their parents and don't visit, I understand that.

I have a neighbour in her 90s in a nursing home. Husband long gone, no children. She has loads of visitors, I don't think I've ever pitched up and been the only one there. Friendship counts for a lot (though I respect that some people aren't into that).

I've experienced some negative reactions when mentioning to people that I don't have children. Plus silly and unimaginative assumptions that I therefore have no responsibilities, sense of purpose, or worries - as if my life is only what they remember theirs being like when they were carefree young adults, before they had children.
But if you have children you might get 'you went back to work?' 'You are an SAHM?' 'You only had one?' 'You have four?' 'You live in a flat?' 'You have that big house just for yourself and two children?' Etc. Everyone gets judged at some point, I suppose that it's because there are fewer childfree by choice people around that it can be a bit isolating at times for us, perhaps.

Not to mention the number of workplaces where childfree people are generally expected to work the awkward shifts, or at Xmas or New Year, because, you know, you don't have a family. Or the childfree people who pick up the slack at work for people who are always off looking after sick kids or the latest school play or months of extra work for someone on maternity leave because the office refuse to pay for a temp. Or how it's impossible to get leave during school holidays because those with kids get priority (never mind the fact your partner is a teacher and can't get time off outside school holidays either).

Ah, that felt better.

Everyone over 50 who hasn't had children ought to be given a sabbattical at work equivalent to one period of maternity leave!!

StillSeth "Everyone over 50 who hasn't had children ought to be given a sabbattical at work equivalent to one period of maternity leave!!"

yes though I'd make it 40!

while I'm getting things off my chest - the other thing about the nursing home and regrets etc...I am finding it hard, getting older and having parents getting older. There was a thread about a family row with a poster saying "mum and I are both too old to change". I'm not having rows with mine, but there's an unpleasant element of me getting older and feeling really weighed down by the responsibility of parents. If children were in that mix as well...well, I shudder to think.

I'm also very glad I won't be a burden to anyone. I love my parents but frankly speaking we are all living so long these days and if you don't have excellent health throughout...I have been dealing with my parents health problems and hopstial appointments etc for 30 years!!!

Write Well, I was considering the fact that I know quite a few people who had children even around 45 and I didn't like the idea of them getting their free time off and then procreating. They can't exactly give the time off back!

As more or more rights are given to parents (and I do think they needed more rights, don't get me wrong) - I believe they can now have a sabbattical as well as maternity/paternity leave at the time - I do think that now childfree and childless people (not the same thing) are becoming more prevalent in society, they will before too long have to look at redressing some of the imbalance.

I don't judge the child free, I think great, what a lovely carefree time, fair enough. BUT, I don't think you can judge why you haven't experienced, so you can't really moan about parents extolling the virtues of parenthood. For example, my husband and I were happily child free for many years, had a whale of a time with our massive social life etc, lived life to the full and loved it, had loads of fun, and then at nearly 40 we got our lovely surprise little boy and it was like that bit in the Wizard of Oz where the world goes from black and white to technicolor. Having children is the full human experience, and yes its tiring and hard work and a huge responsibility, and its also the most joyous, exhilarating, overwhelming, beautiful thing you will ever feel. I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

but Village, you don't know what it's like to be 60 and childfree which is a lot different than 30 and childfree.

Seth - yes, I guess I would say older than that has to take the time unpaid? I mainly thought 40 because my aims were to be working part time and then retire by 50 and I know CF people who have done that - so it would be sad if they were done out of the paid time off.

Village NO! See, you're doing it without even realizing it! Feel free to say:

"It is also the most joyous, exhilarating, overwhelming, beautiful thing I have ever felt"

But do not tell childfree people we will never experience something that WE believe to be the equal of YOUR experience but with something other than childbirth. It's arrogant presumption.

TheVillagePost you've just proved my point though, assuming that all childfree people have a 'lovely carefree time' all their lives. No, you had a lovely carefree time before you had children. Now you have a happy busy life with children. I don't have a life with the responsibility of children but it's certainly not all carefree, irresponsible and lovely!

Exactly Seth, I mostly just eye roll at comments like Village's now.

I don't object to Darcey Bussell telling me that I will never know what it's like to dance the principal swan. But - let's say for a moment I was an athlete ha ha - I might say Darcey doesn't know what it's like to run 100m in whatever time.

We don't know, but I wouldn't say "My athlete experience is in screaming colour compared to your dancer experience" (with apologies to Taylor Swift).

Finallyamummy
I do find it odd though how people with no interest in having children or who don't have step children end up on a site called mumsnet? Is it just me that thinks that is odd?

We all have or have had mothers. Is that ok by you or do I have to push one out to be accepted on here?

Good point on the carefree - going back to the whole "dealing with parental health for 30 years" - let's say I had kids ten years ago, crumbs, I had more than enough responsilibty for other people for long enough thank you very much!

"I think if someone isn't 100% sure they want a child they are wise to not to have one"

Arfanarf is spot on. Having children is damned hard work, no matter how much you want them.

My sister and her dh decided pretty early on that they didn't want children, and she was sterilised. I think I had ds1 by that point - but I supported her decision 100%. And looking at their life now, and how happy and fulfilled they are, it is clear that they made the right decision for them - and I applaud them for it.

FinallyMummy presumably also thinks Dads shouldn't be allowed here either. I believe quite a lot of people come here because they enjoy the forums. Or because they may not want their own but have godchildren or indeed work with children.

'I now actively ask people if we can meet without the kids because it's such a waste of an afternoon.'

I like you Its taken to be a truth universally acknowledged that children are the most wonderful, most exciting, most adorable, fabulous little creatures and that everyone just adores spending as much time as possible with them. Its so lovely to hear a different point of view!

StillDrSeth, I am all over your sabbatical idea! I would like one every decade from your 40th birthday onwards

I have had more than a few friends say to me "I would never say this out loud and I love my children, but...." for it to tip the balance for me, I have never wanted children. I got married late and I am 44 and it's all started up again, not too late to have a kid now is it, and all that shit. I'll decide what I want to do with my own uterus ta.

It's the people who assume that the non-parents have no purpose or are not as busy as them that really grip my shit. Yeah, I'm just sitting around all day eating grapes on my chaise longue.

Write - exactly, it pees me off when childfree people are seen as irresponsible, when in fact we might already have lot of responsibilities, and have thought very carefully about whether or not to have children.

I have never posted in any of the Mumsnet forums that are just for parents - but plenty of them are not.

'Having children is the full human experience''

Village, this is just not cool. And my life is far from 'carefree' by the way. I'm an adult with responsibilities like everyone else. I'm glad you enjoy your son, but how would you feel if I say that I feel sad for you that your life was black and white before, and it took the momentous event of creating another human being to switch the colours and the lights on for you?

Having children is the full human experience

WTF is a 'full human experience'? Plus, is having an 'experience' really a good reason to bring a sentient being into the world?