...to think that the childless by choice are judged harshly?

[SadlyNotNormal]

I have a step son with Asperger's, hence being on here in the first place (in case you wondered).

My question is, even if you don't think you want kids, does that change when you actually have them? Do you magically want to become a parent even if you had doubts before? I ask this most sincerely, as this is the impression my friends with children are currently giving me and I'm curious. When I say that I understand those who don't want children (because of the work involved) I usually get the stock "oh but they're worth it" response which drives me nuts, because the implication is that everyone should have children, because they're so wonderful. Now don't get me wrong, I'm strongly in favour of people having kids if they really want them and always have been. If you really want kids and you are able to, then of course have them. I don't feel as though it goes both ways though. The childless-by-choice are judged harshly (I think) by 'society' / the media as being selfish and I hate that. Surely having children is the same as anything else in life - a choice, a 'project' to pursue or not depending on your desires (if you are fortunate enough to be able to have them)?

I've known since I was 12 that I didn't want them. It's not the idea of childbirth or the sleepless nights or the dirty nappies that bothers me (I was an au pair for a while so have dealt with some pretty intense baby / toddler stuff). It's the thought of having more freedom / money / time to pursue my creative projects in my life that makes my heart soar.

Do you think that more people regret having children than is talked about?

Thanks (in advance) for letting me rant on here. It means that I won't bring it up with friends. I'm tired of hearing how wonderful it is to have children when people know full well I don't want any more (my step son is great and I'm glad to have him; he is also Enough). Would love to hear your thoughts. I hope I haven't caused any offence with my questions.

Yes an the agony and ecstasy of having a child obviously can't be experienced by those who don't have children.

the love that you feel for your child is so intense it's hard to understand why people wouldn't want to feel that

With 4 grown up kids and as a gran I bloody well can.

Yes it's wonderful and would kill or die for mine but its a bloody rollercoster and I sometimes envy my ds and friends who are happily childless and carefree, wealthy and hearts intact.

I'm childless and I've never been judged ever! I prefer to do my own thing without being bogged down. I used to want kids until I started MN and read about how much flack you get constantly and the judgement fro other people and it put me right off. I felt liberated when I decided not to have any and felt my timeline just fade away. I've never been asked when I will have and when I've told people they never have any bad things to say.

There's undoubtedly an assumption about child free women on here - usually that we travel. A lot. We don't have mortgages, jobs, pets, we have unlimited finances and we can jet around the world.

The problem is that generally women won't discuss matters relating to fertility and to relationships: I am now 35 and I have no fertility problems that I know of, but can't find a man! I've had a few 'awkward' conversations with people where I always get urged to join match dot com and it's embarrassing - wish they wouldn't! Anyway ... as you were!

I remember having a argument discussion with my (male) cousin years ago about this. He'd just had a baby and insisted people who didn't have children were selfish, I thought the opposite, that having children was selfish, after all , they don't ask to be born, the world population doesn't need them.

I wonder if this feeling that people are selfish if they don't want children contributes to the stigma of giving a child up for adoption. There's so much stigma attached to this that I don't think it even exists anymore. A friend's young daughter was pregnant, family were happy to support whatever decision she made, between keep the baby or have an abortion, having the baby and having it adopted would have been an absolutely outrageous option and would not even been considered for a second.

Having children is THE most selfish thing you can do I think. People hardly give birth for the sake of humanity. They do it because THEY want children

I agree. But it's not something that's popular to say in public; think of all the celebrities and other publicfigures who spout that rubbish about "feeling more" after they have children. I always think that says more about the thinness of their life or character before children.

I'm not sure if those who are childless through choice are harshly judged

Yes we are - childless by choice or circumstance - every time a politician or someone in public life or someone on MN or someone in a conversation talks about 'hard working families' or indulges in the crap stereotype of the high living singleton, or every single sodding newspaper article about the 'selfish' or ignorant women who leave having children 'too late' or who won't settle for Mr OK, or who decide to do other things. Every single sodding time.

I am now 35 and I have no fertility problems that I know of, but can't find a man!

I was like this now 20 years on I say I'm "socially infertile." Too many "selfish" single men who want to stay Peter Pans.

kate im really bucking the "trends" Im a childfree by choice teetotal social housing tenant.

Adoption is a huge red herring. The generally accepted wisdom is that children thrive best with their birth families: whether that is actually true or not is debatable but that is certainly the prevailing attitude at this time. Therefore, someone stating that they wish to give up their child for adoption isn't handing them smiling bravely to a doting couple but putting them in the care system. The child would probably be approaching its first birthday by the time he or she got his or her forever home. If they were lucky.

It's one thing to agree adoption is an option but it isn't, nowadays, some sort of sweet compromise between abortion and keeping the child.

finallyamummy, that's part of the problem. I've no kids & I love Mumsnet. I enjoy both the mum stuff & all the other life stuff.
The big thing putting me off having kids is becoming a "mum". I'd like a child, to bring them up, everything else involved. Except the me being a "mum" bit.
And now you're questioning whether I can read, with validity, read Mumsnet? Proves how I feel...
Aren't we all just women with our various issues, lives, relationships, kids or not? And having said that, yes I totally realise that having a child / children completely changed your life.
I actually that's the crux for a lot a people who don't have kids. It's not always black & white "I don't want kids". I'm 40 now & biologically my body is crying out for it, but mentally...
Mumsnet is an eye opener too. Mum or not, I'll join in. Like I would with my friends in RL. To them I'm still me & they are still them. They don't make me feel "not a mum". Yet becoming a "mum" is something that makes me uncomfortable. It's quite the paradox!

Mumsnet was probably once a place for women with small children but now I consider it more of a 'womensnet.'

I don't think it's odd at all that childfree women are on Mumsnet. At least half of the posts on here have nothing to do with parenting and it's a good place to chat with other adults.

BettyCrystal, I very much agree that it's not a black and white issue. I've felt physical cravings for a baby too but I know I couldn't cope with the day to day life of parenthood. Can't see myself as a 'mum' either. It's an incredibly personal issue

FoggyBottom, that is a good point. I have never felt judged by family, friends etc. for being childfree (in fact it's been a boon careerwise; employers subtly make that cleaer) but in terms of politicians, lawmakers and social policy we certainly get the short end of the stick. Everything seems geared to people who choose parenthood, forgetting the very tangible social benefits the childfree contribute.

I judge a bit when people cite crap reasons for not having children. Money being one of them .Or not liking babies.
If you never wanted them or you have strong feelings against having them or you know you'd be a shite parent then I couldn't care less really.

I would think money and not liking babies are fairly good reasons for not having a baby!

Yabu. Women are negatively judged and stereotyped no matter what choices they make.

Don't want children? It's unnatural and selfish for a woman. But for a man he just wants to enjoy his life.

Want kids? Woman must have no ambitions, think of the population. Man, oh bless he's great with kids, how nice he wants to settle down.

Sahm? Sits on her backside all day, lives off her husband, can't cope with a proper job. Sahd? What a hero.

Working when you have kids? Women are dumping them on someone else to raise, selfish, kids need love. A man is doing the right thing to provide for his family.

Single parent? Women just do it for benefits, and raise delinquents. Dads are amazing to do such a great job on their own.

And it's exactly the same for so many things, from sex life to career.

What bothers me most though is that the majority of the time these judgements come from other women.

'I would think money and not liking babies are fairly good reasons for not having a baby!'

My thoughts exactly! It frustrates me so much when people post on here saying stuff like 'we're broke and have four children, should we have a fifth?' and get told to go for it because hey, babies!

Thought same as Lotta & kate...

reveal you may think they're crap reasons but it isn't anything to do with you so I can't see why you'd judge. Plus if you've put someone in the position of defending thier decision (for the umpteenth time for them probably) then how do you know that those are the only reasons? A child free person may not wish to give you all the reasons complex or otherwise why they don't have kids especially as they may feel you're judging them.

Well said, Lurked. Although women of previous generations had their own problems, I'm sure that the competition aspect wasn't there...

I must admit I think the same Lotta - and yes, I realise that often relationships break down and circumstances change but 'we have 3/4/5 children and can't afford to live' do frustrate me a bit.

You can be poor and happy though. You really can even if you live in the south east. And having kids doesn't mean poverty.
I know many families that got dream jobs or started successful businesses after having children. You don't suddenly change into a parent zombie. You are the same person except you have a child in your life.

Babies grow up. Toddlers grow up. You have roughly 10 years of intensive parenting followed by 6 more of letting them go.

I don't disagree with any of that, but it isn't in itself a reason to have children.

I do want children, so much so that I am considering having them via a clinic, but I don't think it's a sixteen year job.

Yeah someone i know thought of it as a job with a limited time span..........and kicked her daughter out when she turned 18.

And then got bedroom taxed.

Financially planning for a family is the responsible thing to do. Including what you'll do if the child is disabled or has special needs, if one of the parents dies or becomes ill, etc. I'm shocked anyone would think that lack of money is a 'crap reason' to refrain from childbearing.

pinky I'm judging their decisions not them.Having an opinion I think is flawed doesn't mean I think they are wrong about everything.
I don't immediately think they are lesser human beings because of this one choice. As you say, it's up to them. I'm allowed to think some reasons are crap though.