AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

unlucky there have been quite a few changes since I've been in Brussels. For example, the European Parliament has gradually got more oversight of the different dossiers. Plus the Commission has put in place more and more oversight of its decision making process - there are consultations before, after and during development of proposals via the Better Regulation initiative. plus various democratic oversight pieces have come into place via the Lisbon Treaty through including national parliaments.
There's still a lot of work to be done, but it hasn't been standing still. There has been reform., and there still will be.

unlucky infacts.org/briefings/swiss-option/ - on the swiss option.

I think my point is that nothing is perfect but I don't think that leaving is better, it will just make everything a lot worse.

Tory "Leave" MP has switched to "Remain" over "lies about NHS"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36485464

Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has quit the campaign to leave the EU and will vote for Remain instead, she told the BBC.
Dr Wollaston, chairman of the health select committee, said Vote Leave's claim that Brexit would free up £350m a week for the NHS "simply isn't true".
She told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that she did not feel "comfortable" being part of the campaign.

kitty - so when was that video of the Irish MEP made?
Juncker doesn't seem particularly fond of democracy. (I know he won't be there for ever -but the fact he was chosen ...says a lot!)
Without being snippy - 'since I've been in Brussels' -by that do you mean you work in/for the EU? So you have vested person interest in remaining and also you don't actually live in the UK?

The Irish MEP is talking about TTIP as you know - this is how trade negotiations work. You won't find any US trade negotiations open to the public until they're ready. This is not representative of EU legislation. In fact these closed rooms are fairly standard practice in competition law due to USregulations (tho you can bring in computers to those). They r trying to prevent leaks before negotiations are progressed enough. Bear in mind there's been a lot of input from meps and council regarding their position on TTIP before all this.

The texts he's looking at have been agreed but the deal itself will have to be accepted by the EP and the Council. There are many indications that it won't - not due to the UK in fact since Cameron et Al are fans but the FR are fairly opposed. In fact all these horrendous trade deals are what we have to look forward to if we leave and believe me the UK govt in that situation will not be able to be transparent.

Also I've been very open on my situation in lots of threads. I don't work for the EU but follow it so I have an intimate understanding of how it works. I have two potentially opposing vested interests - one is that I am fairly terrified about what could happen to UK expats like myself in the long term. Especially since im stuck here for various reasons. And i genuinely fear for the future stability of Europe overall if we leave and thus all of our childrrn's futures. The other opposing interest is that if we do leave the resulting mess cld b extremely lucrative.

On the lucrative point it's to be noted that there's a lot of lawyers and lobbyists poised to cash in on brexit and they don't think it will be solved in 2 years. I'm hearing 10. Another reason I'm convinced that leave is not in the UK's interests!

Sarah Wollaston has switched to the Remain side, and of course they have never lied or distorted any figures

winter there's certainly been distortions of the figures in remain, but no outright lies that I have seen. Unlike Leave who have been caught out on many - the 350 million figure, Turkey, EU Army etc.

Osborne's claim that every household would be £4300 worse off after Brexit was a lie. The figures didn't say that at all.

winter
See here showing the many 'lies' of the Leave campaign.
www.byline.com/column/11/article/1094

osborne's figures were criticised for using a certain type of economic modelling which imagines a certain scenario for hte future economy and which resulted in the 4300 figure. IE I think it's true to say that there are flaws in the model, but not that it's an out and out lie on the same level of the 350 million.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/19/treasury-brexit-analysis-george-osborne-got-his-magic-number

nearlyhellokitty

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/18/eu-facts-treasury-document-unspun/

"Where does the “£4,300 worse off” figure come from?"

"That money will not vanish from your bank account if we vote to Leave in June and don’t get full access to the single market. In fact, it doesn’t mean anyone would lose money they now have. Instead, it refers to economic gains that the Treasury says would not happen if we left the EU."

"Broadly, the Treasury says total UK economic activity, known as gross domestic product will be 37 per cent bigger in 2030 if we stay in the EU. If we leave, it will be 31 per cent bigger. The Treasury then takes the difference between those two outcomes and divides them by the number of households in Britain. Some economists question whether "GDP per household" is a meaningful figure, since it does not accurately reflect households' spending power or living standards."

still not a lie in the same way that the 350 million is though

Yes, it's the same, because the figures have been "spun" on each side.

The £350 million was worked out by calculations, it wasn't just plucked out of thin air.

It includes the rebate (which could change at any time), because officially this leaves us (on paper at least) and only comes back if the EU decides that's going to happen. It isn't set in the treaties.

It also includes a sum sent back to us for spending as the EU dictates. But it certainly isn't sent back to us with no strings attached, the money goes into the hands of Brussels beaurocrats who then tell the UK what our taxpayers' money is going to be spent on

The national bureau of statistics has told Leave to stop using it....

"In its broadcast ads and on the side of the battle bus ferrying Boris Johnson around the country, Vote Leave says we “send” £350 million a week to the EU. This is not true. "

It is not a farce, however much you may dislike the campaign and how it is being conducted.

I dislike the lack of discussion on employment protection that may be lost if we leave the EU, or the environmental improvements that won't happen. I am concerned that those who want to leave believe migration will fall greatly when at most I think it could be a net 50,000 per year, and then those who vote to leave will feel cheated after a few years if we do.

I wish it was more a debate outside of the Tories with the occasional input from UKIP, whereas the other parties who between them gained the majority of votes cast at the last general election are hardly featured.

However, despite all these concerns I will vote, and urge all other people to do so.

Vote Leave have a referendum campaign broadcast on Radio 4 right now. They are still going on about how they will spend the extra £350M a week that we will no longer be sending to Europe. (With Farage and Boris in charge obviously on the NHS and the poor.)

It's bare-faced lie, it is repeated continually, and it doesn't compare with any of the spin on the Remain side.

I really liked this comment on the integrity of Boris Johnson in this matter tompride.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/the-great-eu-debate-boris-johnson-vs-boris-johnson/

nauticant why is that a lie? We pay billions in, and get a small percentage back which we are told what we have to spend it on. We could spend it in the NHS. That's no lie.

"Bank of England Top Advisor cristises Mark Carneys over playing the ecconomic risks of leaving the EU. Richard Sharp external member of finicancial policy committee said he disagreed with Carneys view British reliance on foreign investment could trigger a severe downturn following an out. ....

Mr Sharp a former Goldman Sachs banker raised concerns about the Banks analysis of costs. Mr Sharp said there was little threat of investors pulling out " I am not worried about major financial difficulty ..The UK is a thoroughly invest able economy and wold remain a thoroughly invest able economy which ever way the vote goes......'

"strangers make a risk-reward assessment and they would continue to view the UK as an extremely good rsk"

I dislike the lack of discussion on employment protection that may be lost if we leave the EU

what are the french rioting about to do with employment laws?

Yes, it's a amazing how little the left seem to be saying,. I am of the right and support remain but there are all kinds of points the left culld be using to get those younger voters to vote (and they'd vote remain) from employment protectino rights when business assets are sold (the acquired rights directive) to all the discrimination legislation (although I do of course remember the Equal Pay Act 1970 was before we joined. That Act helped us be permitted to join the EU.

There is also EU privacy rights helping us stand up to US demands for EU citizens' data.
Minimum working hours with rights to opt back in even if you opt out.
All kinds of stuff.

I know that most sensible Bruitish people know we are better out than in and I will eat my hat if we vote to leave. I am feelnig pretty confident about it .

Sarah Wollaston - I'm a fan. I hope she gets high office. I have no idea why she ever supported leave. Her skills and knowledge as a GP and her views on issues are a huge asset to the Government.

The only person speaking out for the left is the lovely Frank Field

www.frankfield.co.uk/latest-news/articles/news.aspx?p=1021270

Vote leave to help the poor.

Corybn cant say much can he, because his heart is in.

heart is OUT!!