AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

To hear left side for leave watch ITV 8pm today - Gisela Stuart - I'm a big fan.

she knows inside how EU works Labour MP for Edgbaston. I've spoken about her on other thread tonight with links. Nicola Sturgeon on for remain - hopefully a real debate will take place?

Oh come on hairy you're not seriously peddling the 350 million lie? It's not being sent to Brussels

If Frank Field for leave? Oh dear. Silly man. The sensible left are all for staying in except a few UKIP unionists and truck drivers.

Can Nicola debate? I only hear shallow crowd pleasing crap. Dont like her sorry.

Nealry I never mentioned it, got wrong poster.

Yes Frank Field is speaking up for the low paid in Britain, unlike the other "left" who are out playing one another with 'I'm the least racist person you know, doncha know?".

Emperors new clothes politics - they will lose their core working class voter f they don't take fingers out of their ears and stop calling our working class on £7.20 an hour "racists who should be grateful"

Yes Frank Field is speaking up for the low paid in Britain, unlike the other "left" who are out playing one another with 'I'm the least racist person you know, doncha know?"

I had not heard of him actually since the last QT. I had no idea who he was, but he seemed so genuine and sincere, why have we not heard more of him? I think he would have won the last election? Comes across millions times better than slimy Blair, and the rest. A man who to me, embodies what Labour bloody well should be.

I'm sure you will like Gisela too

Yes Labour has Blair and Frank Field - on opposing sides in this campaign

• do wish the lazy remainers stop pretending this issue is just loons wanting democracy. Blair; Goldman Sachs; Cameron ... We can all play : you've got revolting people on their "side".

Let's compare Frank to Blair - and see who we believe :

www.frankfield.co.uk/latest-news/articles/news.aspx?p=1021270

Yes Frank Field is speaking up for the low paid in Britain, unlike the other "left" who are out playing one another with 'I'm the least racist person you know, doncha know?"

I had not heard of him actually since the last QT. I had no idea who he was, but he seemed so genuine and sincere, why have we not heard more of him? I think he would have won the last election? Comes across millions times better than slimy Blair, and the rest. A man who to me, embodies what Labour bloody well should be.

Yes Labour has Blair and Frank Field - on opposing sides in this campaign

well today it transpires Blair has admitted he massively underestimated and didn't envisage what would happen after Saddam was toppled.

Just as he didn't envisage what would happen after dropping working rights.
This man still walks free?

Absolutely agree Leave, Labour is no longer the party of the poor

Kummer - it is a political party of intellectual exercise today. It is rather like (getting bit Biblical here) the Phariseees - to be "seen" doing/saying the right thing, however they have a hollow heart and more about making them feel better about themselves.

However Labour appear to have utter contempt for the low paid UK citizen now - they are "bigots" to quote Gordon Brown.

Even Corbyn has abandoned his old Labour colleagues that voted against EU in HoC - Gisela Stuart and Kate Hoey have seen him abandon his principles now he has his eye on the prize.

Yes really liked Frank Field. He seemed to be how politicians used to be, not all out for their own ends.

I am also a big fan of Frank Field.

Watched that QT with ds2 who at the end said something like this: "Woo that Frank Field killed it, without getting involved with any crap. What a cool man. Love his Vamp look."

Phariseees - to be "seen" doing/saying the right thing, however they have a hollow heart and more about making them feel better about themselves

spot on Again, all summed up in Shallow Blair really, caused catastrophic issues in peoples lives and yet doesn't seem to care much and willingly admits he got so much wrong. Reminds me, of Leonard Bast in Howards End life ruined by casual comments and advice from Mr Wilcoxe

FF has usually pretty sensible but he's wrong on vote leave as is IDS - both good men trying to do something about welfare reform in the UK and both have taken the wrong side on this.

Oh yes great analogy about Howard's End - the Wilcoxes - only connect

To come back to the original post: please do vote.

I know a fair bit about the EU and can honestly say that I am ashamed of the lies put forward by the leave campaign, and ashamed that there is so little information out there about what the EU actually is or does, which might help those of us who are unsure make up their mind.

Admittedly I am biased towards Remain, but consider this one: the so-called democratic deficit. EU laws are made by the co-legislator, that's elected national governments in the Council and directly elected MEPs in the European Parliament. Yes the Commission has the power to make proposals, but these proposals are then negotiated (and from my experience, changed dramatically) by the co-legislator before being implemented nationally, often with considerable degrees of discretion left to national governments. Oh, and the Commissioners are appointed by elected national governments and confirmed in their jobs by the elected European Parliament. How is that undemocratic?

Or the internal market. Britain is one of the world's largest economies because it has access to the internal market, not in spite of it. To take just one example: the financial services industry is a hugely important part of the British economy and the reason why it is thriving is that non-EU financial institutions chose London as their European headquarters not only because the main language is English but crucially, because once authorised in an EU Member State, they can provide services or establish themselves in all other EU Member States (the so-called 'passport'). If London can no longer offer the passport because the UK is no longer in the EU, then those firms will move elsewhere...to Dublin perhaps or to Frankfurt or Luxembourg, where English is widely spoken. The loss for the UK economy would be drastic, with terrible effects on GDP and public finances. Imagine what a Conservative government will do when the going gets tough-invest in the NHS? Provide social services to those in need? Their track record doesn't suggest that this will be the case.

I could go on.

Clearly not all is well on Planet Europe (nor in the UK for that matter), but we can't change things if we vote out, not in Europe and not in the world.

Please vote.

This is what another MEP has to say about the apparent "anti democracy" of the EU compared to that of the Leave campaigners.

leftfootforward.org/2016/06/brexiters-faux-populism-is-a-sham-they-dont-want-to-take-power-back-from-the-elites/

I keep asking, exactly in what way does the EU affect our democratic structures now? It doesn't. There are plenty of other countries in the EU that are more democratic than ours, with much stronger local government and more socialist, egalitarian structures. It therefore cannot be the EU that stops us from becoming more socialist, more egalitarian. It is us, our local oligarchies, and the whole British class structure right here, which insist on flawed voting systems, which control our media, peddle lies and confuse everyone's thoughts with it, which reject any attempt to increase constituency powers over MPs, which demand that local government decisions in the north are dominated by or overturned by London's elite's interests, which insist that education and the educated are a threat to the whole country and need to be limited and controlled. What is wrong with using intelligence for goodness sake?

Everyone who is in any doubt about leaving the EU needs to go out and vote. It will take maybe 30 minutes out of your day. Otherwise we could end up leaving by default.

bungo I looked at that link - I can't get past the tories filling the House of Lords with their cronies - in the house of Lords there 245 tories, 210 labour, 108 lib dems and 173 cross benchers and a few other parities.
The House of Lords can't introduce bills, they can actually be overruled.
I was always a bit doubtful but now I have come to the conclusion a second unelected house is a good idea. They act as a stop gap - can send things back to parliament saying I think you need a rethink on this.
I live in Scotland where we don't have a second house but our voting system is supposed to stop an overall majority - but the SNP did have one. They introduced things and got it through parliament with just their MSPs support. A couple of things they have done (Curriculum for Excellence in education and Police Scotland) are fuck ups - it would have better for another body to be able to say stop - have you thought about this and what about this? what about that? you need to think this through.
Also the Lords rejecting things often draws public attention to them - which is a good thing....

The point you are missing is the EU itself is not democratic. We can change the politics in this country - because it is democracy. We can't change the EU. Even Corbyn agrees there are problems with the EU but thinks (or says at least) we can change them from within - (sure I am repeating myself here) Margaret Thatcher said similar many years ago but if anything things have got worse. How are we suddenly going to change it now?
To quote Tony Benn 'The case against the EU is its lack of Democracy'
think-left.org/2015/07/06/tony-benn-the-case-against-the-eu-is-its-lack-of-democracy/

"It therefore cannot be the EU that stops us from becoming more socialist, more egalitarian. It is us* our local oligarchies, and the whole British class structure right here, which insist on flawed voting systems, which control our media, peddle lies and confuse everyone's thoughts with it, which reject any attempt to increase constituency powers over MPs, which demand that local government decisions in the north are dominated by or overturned by London's elite's interests, which insist that education and the educated are a threat to the whole country and need to be limited and controlled"

This x 1000 lol

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/107438/Lord-Lady-Kinnock-s-10m-Euro-gravy-train

Lord & Lady Kinnock's £10m Euro gravy train

and the next generation of their family is on the gravy train too allegedly:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kinnocks-on-the-brussels-gravy-train-xcxbdkx6r

Socialism is available in this country too. In a few years we could see a Labour government here and the far right having risen greatly in the EU. We can't reform the EU, that much has become clear.

In what way is the EU particularly interested in the north of our country? The EU runs in the interests of the wealthy elites and large corporations. The elites would like power to be distanced from ordinary people, so of course back "remain" and in this country are often in London.

Socialism is available in this country too - not really, we had a few little murmors when this government took from the disabled with one hand and gave tax breaks to the rich with the other. Which is quite a litmus test for the UK population in general.

Corbyn is refreshing but is too vocal on the wrong issues to get a majority. I still don't know whether Labour are sellling diet conservatism or something actually different.

Biscuit to me these issue are outside of the EU that we need to solve in our own country.

Its not suprising that there are powerful elites that run throughout the west built on centuries of politics, who are intertwined in the capitalist world we find ourselves in, wether in or out of Europe.

But if it was so ingrained with business as you said why would it bother with rules on improving our environment? Rules on employment? Rules on monopolies?

That's why I see being out as the worse options, when the language of 'winning' exemptions from the working time directive, that the conservatives lobbied europe against state help, and the crazy situation with british steel, UKIP are against the NHS. The continued lie that we need to tighten belts when 4 x the cost of Europe in tax avoidance and evasion goes on, again without a murmur.

Tie that together with my earlier point on the lack of interest on disabled and benefits, the scrounger/grafter mentally that has wormed its way into the majority, the first past the post system where the government is decided by a few swing constituencies, what we will get is unfettered conservatism.

Interesting article due to be published this weekend in Der Spiegel by Wolfgang Schauble - at least it gives us a taste of what we may (or may not) be able to negotiate...

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/10/no-single-market-access-for-uk-after-brexit-wolfgang-schauble-says

It's a pity it takes a referendum for the EU ministers (or one of them at least) to actually admit the organisation is too unwieldy and needs to change.