AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

Haven't the Brexiters already won, according to the polls?

Shit. Really? But the polls were very wrong pre-general election. That is the hope I'll cling to. And that people like the op do actually go out and vote.

Ha! I went to visit relatives last week, over 3 days and of course the referendum came up in conversation. The majority wanted to leave but I despair at the reasons coming out of seemingly intelligent peoples mouths
One relative declared that Hitler would be laughing in his grave, as Germany, if we remained, would end up ruling us!
One said all the eastern europeans were taking our jobs, while sitting there with his Thai bride (who works in this country)
Then yet another said if we had to find new foreign markets it would make the British work harder, to find them (this is someone who retired at 50).
There seems to be the attitude of we managed before we joined, so we will manage very well again.
I shudder to think of the jobs that will be lost in manufacturing, (when the factories move to Spain) and in the city in the financial sector(I know personally of several financial institutions who have plans in place to move to Paris or Bonn if we exit)
I'd rather listen to the leader of the CBI and representatives of the financial institutions than the politicians who have their own PR agendas (yes I mean you particularly Boris!)

MustStopAndThinkBeforePosting Really good post!

If you don't vote, zip it if you don't like the result.

Ideally I'd like the option for e e c without the 'union' but we can't have that.

Rigged how Need? Social and traditional media is all over this - if it were really rigged, do you think there's even the slightest possibility we wouldn't get to know about it?

2. We elect our government democratically to make tough decisions on our behalf. We cannot keep deferring to referendum every time the decision making gets particularly tough.

One of Tony Blair - and ultimately NuLabours - legacies is the firm knowledge that the UK was strongarmed into a war which was protested about at the time, where democratic debate was shut down and - most importantly - millions of people were told to "get fucked" by the government they had trusted to look after them.

And it's not use that cunt Blair acting all "If only we'd known" because - and maybe this is key - you can't hide the history. He was warned. They were warned. And pushed on regardless.

So that legacy is in people like my DS who can genuinely ask me "what's the point Dad ?".

The cynicism and apathy from those years are - as we were all warned - a poisonous, corrosive mix.

The only consolation is that whatever he does to try and spin the history, Tony Blair will forever show the world his penance in his face. It could be used against "haunted" in a picture dictionary.

Haven't the Brexiters already won, according to the polls? A victory for ignorance and bigotry

Insults are not political arguments. Ironically, its actually supremely ignorant, arrogant and offensive for the Leave campaigners to caricature Brexit supporters like this, and demonise people's genuine and legitimate concerns about issues like immigration and overpopluation. Even the Dalai Lama recognises that there are serious issues here that need understanding. I personally think a successful Leave campaign, where we stay in Europe, will create massive problems in this country. I also suspect a successful Brexit campaign will have issues to deal with, but at least they followed their heart, whereas Cameron and Leave campaign as far as I can see mainly follow their wallets.

Yes its a farce and has done nothing for the credibility of politicians on either side or politics generally. I am finding the whole thing very upsetting.

From what I can see it seems to have come down to how racist you are. I would have liked to hear more from the out campaign about the impact for the environment, health etc, as I was genuinely undecided, but all I am hearing is bigots being fairly openly racist about immigration (including "the muslims" which has little to do with Europe).

We need to engage in Europe and have more effective MEPs than we do now. Then we can influence the EU. Other countries get loads out of the EU by fighting for it via policies and sitting on all legislative committees. UKIP MEPs are most definitely not the answer - they are all useless. If we had a more effective policy in Europe we would benefit from it significantly more. There really is no need to leave. Just better polices.

Yes. I honestly think that. Doesn't mean I won't vote but I do think it's rigged

I'm going to lose another hour to drafting the synopsis of that one now. Brexit has stolen my day

I am voting out because I think the EU undemocratic -everything I've read backs that up. And IMO democracy is the most important thing we have.
We might have no real opposition etc at the moment but we can change that - it might take time but we live in a democracy.
The very fact we do influences the governments actions - your vote does count even if you feel it doesn't, the party you voted for wasn't elected.
I've said this on another thread National Insurance, basically the foundation of the NHS, was introduced by the Liberals in 1911 -to try and not lose support to the newly formed Labour Party. We are having this referendum because the tories were worried about losing supporters to UKIP ...
The EU needs serious reform - and unlike Corbyn I don't believe we can change the EU from within. Margaret Thatcher said something along those lines many years ago - and instead it has got worse.
My only hope for the EU to be reformed to the extent it needs to be is the shake up of one of the 'wealthy' countries (ie the UK) voting out. I don't hold out much hope for that.
The economic arguments are irrelevant as no-one knows what will really happen - it is all guess work. And twisted statistics from both sides.

(I seriously hope you're wrong BTW, but it would make a great political thriller)

Well yes Lurking I see your point but that doesn't mean that perpetual referendums is the answer, otherwise why do we bother voting every few years? Incidentally, hundreds of thousands were also ignored and silenced when this Conservative government led us to air strikes in Syria...

One thing that worries me is that brexit round my way is supported by some really unpleasant people (bigots, racists, twats mainly ) which makes me want to remain but I don't want to be ruled by an unknown in Brussels.

Are you in Clacton or Rochester? These things really vary by postcode. You'd be in much nicer company nationally than you are locally if you did vote out.

The problem is we can't influence Europe Notme. Last time we got not a sausage. Its a German-French political force (mainly German - with threats last week that we will be "cut off" if we leave, if I was to use the emotive language of Leave, much like an abusive partner!). So Cameron had to swallow his pride and pretend we'd won something, when in fact we hadn't even got any crumbs from the table. If people think thats an edifying and honourable way to live they are perfectly welcome to chose Remain.

I don't think we should have had a referendum either, but here it is. It is your right to not vote but it's such a shame to waste it. It's your chance to have your say.

"Why should I condone the Tory power games?"

There was an electoral promise to hold a referendum on an In / Out so I am not sure I would agree with this. They are simply doing what was promised [to the letter of the law which is what makes it farcical].

All the parties are recommending Remain so on that basis if I had no clue, I would vote to Remain. I certainly wouldn't stay in bed and pretend it wasn't happening.

*it's farcical simply because the consequences of "Out" are unknown so the knee jerk response will always be to stuck with what we know. Had the referendum been "Stay in the EU on the current basis / Stay within common market with free movement of labour and an annual cost of X [based on current fees] I think most people would have said that this is entirely pointless waste of time.

Noting that Option 2 looks like the most likely option if there is a Brexit given that the majority of MP's are pro remain and therefore will negotiate as much as possible to maintain the status quo.

Please vote! Agree with blimey

Unfortunately Just5 I see a lot of racist and bigoted people where I live who will vote to leave the EU to validate their racist and bigoted tendencies. I live in East Anglia. Of course I'm aware that there are a lot of balanced, reasonable people who will vote to leave, but my association with Brexit around here is of the 'Polish are stealing our jobs and raping our women' camp. Sad but true.

I wasn't going to vote because I was sick to the back teeth of all of them, but then realised how daft that was :)

I think the democracy thing is a bit of a red herring. We do elect representatives, who need to approve the Commission and the Commission is approved by countries' elected representatives.

Also, how much say really do you think an individual gets on what happens in any individual policy area? It's a bit of an illusion now.

So I chose to focus on the incomes rather than get tied up in theoretical principles and now am happy with my choice to vote in.

Sorry, the election of the Commission is approved by elected representatives in the first place.

FFS - I'm focusing on outcomes, not incomes!

OP, please consider all the facts, lies, statistics and opinions very carefully and then change your mind about remaining and vote Leave.

Seriously, I know I am biased but I think this article by the Guardian Economics Editor is good:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite

East Anglia is in a tough spot economically, isn't it lion? Sadly some types of people look for scapegoats.

I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

It is enraging (if unsurprising) that that's what they've made it into. A bad-tempered Tory tussle. All about the boys.......