AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

winter the EU invests in the poorest regions generally speaking.

See below for some figures of the impact of leaving on the North:

CEBR research shows 70,000+ North East manufacturing jobs are linked to EU trade.
80% of the cars made at Sunderland go to the European market and World Trade Organisation tariffs would kill the industry which supports tens of thousands of jobs in the North East, not just in manufacturing but in services (MEP Kirton Darling)

www.northeastlabour.eu/wish-eu-were-here - The North East has received billions of pounds of investment over the decades from the EU. There are lots of projects that rely on EU funding now such as the Hartlepool Growth Hub, the Teesside Advanced Manufacturing Park, the Consett Business Park, the Vaux site redevelopment in Sunderland, The Core Building at Science Central in Newcastle and the Northumberland Rural Growth Network. We are a net recipient of EU funds. Over the next five years the North East will get £664m in EU funds.

• universities: Britain exiting the European Union could cost the North East’s Universities millions of pounds, Labour’s Shadow Business Secretary has warned.

Labour released figures showing that Newcastle and Durham Universities have benefitted from over £50m of EU funding since 2008. This funding enables Universities to conduct ground breaking research, benefitting the local economy and increasing economic growth.

In comments made in Newcastle after visits to businesses in the area, Angela Eagle MP said: “The North East is rightly proud of the pioneering research being under-taken by its universities in Newcastle and Durham. The research at both universities and the potential spin-offs can play a huge part in driving growth and diversifying the North East’s economy.

“These figures highlight the risk to our universities of the UK leaving the European Union.

“EU funded research at the UK’s leading universities has led to vital scientific discoveries, including potential treatments for cancer and heart disease.

“Leaving the EU would put… our competitive advantage and highly-skilled jobs at risk”.

breaking what if the EU becomes dominated by the Far right wing? decides to slash worker rights? What can we do about it? Nothing...
kitty they are giving us our own money back - and not even all of it...around 2/3 of it...so we will still have money for research ... and for research which is right for the UK.

It's like me taking £100 off someone and giving them back £66.67 and telling them what they were allowed to spend it on (which was maybe not what they thought they wanted or even needed) and keeping £33.33 for myself.... and then asking them to be grateful I gave them some money back...

unlucky you're missing the point that it's joined up research networks as well across Europe and focused on poorer areas. Very important for research and in fact the analogy is incorrect -
This is a better one:

I have not heard from anywhere that we get back more from the EU (cash) than we put in - I don't think anyone thinks that do they? (I beleive I was being generous with the 2/3 figure)

I was a research scientist - we were more likely to share research with US or even Asia than Europe. Look at research impact statistics www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php

Look at the Journal rankings www.scimagojr.com/journalrank.php
Look at the top world universities
www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2016/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only
There isn't an EU university (apart from UK!!!! and Switzerland -who aren't in the EU) in the top 20 ...
There is one EU journal (not UK) in the top 50 ranked journals (Netherlands at no 43) - the top rated Journal is UK.
So tell me again about how much we gain from sharing research with the EU?

Lots of funding for research into heart disease and cancer comes from the MRC, BBSRC or from charities like the British Heart Foundation, Cancer Research UK, Marie Curie (UK)....and for health in general places like Diabetes UK. As well clinical research (by the NHS).

"breaking what if the EU becomes dominated by the Far right wing? decides to slash worker rights? What can we do about it? Nothing."

We can do a lot more about it in than out. Also the EU will not be slashing worker rights. Even if it did plenty of EU laws allow countries to have stricer laws - it's called a minimum harmonisation directive and there are tons of them where the EU law is a minimum lower standard and countries then have stricter laws if they prefer.

But user - don't we have to stay in the EU to protect workers rights?
So if the EU did slash them surely we would take advantage of that and slash them too - isn't that supposedly going to happen if we leave the EU?
(And don't we have one of the highest - if not the highest NMW - in the EU anyway? Although I think it is higher in Luxembourg...)

unlucky83 It's like me taking £100 off someone and giving them back £66.67 and telling them what they were allowed to spend it on (which was maybe not what they thought they wanted or even needed) and keeping £33.33 for myself.... and then asking them to be grateful I gave them some money back...

Except that by the way that the £66.67 you give back to them and the £33.33 that you keep gets spent, it enables them to make £500-£1000 more profit on their other activities than they would have if they had kept their £100 all along. Which seems like a good deal to me

I am not the person to ask that (despite being an EU lawyer) because I am of the right, not left. However the argument which I am happy to make for the left is that if we stay in workers' rights many of which flowed from the EU are more likely to be preserved. That is definitely true particularly now we have such free world markets (a good thing) competing with countries with many fewer workers' rights.

The EU is unlikely to slash workers' rights - no way. That is not the view of most people voting in the EU at all.

There is no legislation requiring a minmum wage under EU law. Countries can have one or not as the case may be. We haven't harmonised the law on that in the EU. No one who wants to remain is saying every workers' protective measure has always come from the EU of course not. It was the from the Victorian Quakers and others, Lord Shaftesbury and the like that we got workers' rights of sorts in the 1800s and then the 1914 rise of communism, massive death duties and then post WWII all those soldiers returning home insisting on a health service. That is a huge part of our history and not flowing from the EU. However many more recent EU measures have protected workers still further and help us to fight against pressure from the US which has a very different system, to remove or reduce rights.

must does it though? Really?
So what pays for the EU - the politicians and bureaucrats?
Also I know (personal experience) that small businesses struggle with the amount of red tape...and that is just trying to trade within the UK. Not trying to export etc. I have recently had to deal with something that was 100x more complicated than it needed/used to be and took a heck of a lot longer because of EU regulations. I have had the emails telling me all about e-invoicing etc - which isn't really relevant to my work - but still I have to take the time to read this nonsense and try and understand it - so I know it isn't relevant. That's why the EU suits big business they have the funds - excess money/profit to pay for the admin and lawyers etc. For a small business one extra full time member of admin staff could wipe out all the profit.

And in your example - where does that profit come from? From elsewhere in the EU? From the rest of the world? From the magic money tree? Someone has to spend that extra money (maybe to pay for admin/lawyers to understand the requirements) ...where does it come from?

I don't the EU telling us how we should spend our money, I don't want someone else telling DH how we should be spending our money either.

User - the foundations of the NHS started in 1911 (by introduction of National Insurance), it was being debated in parliament in the early 30s - if anything WW2 got in the way...
Except then we got money for the US (Marshall plan) to help economic recovery in Europe after the war and we chose to use that to fund the start of the NHS.
And I know about our history on workers rights etc - it wasn't just the philanthropists, it was also through trade unions and the formation of the Labour party. People in this country died for workers rights ...people also died to get us universal suffrage.
I want to live in a democracy - I think it is the most important thing we have. I don't think the EU is democratic - I don't it is going to be made democratic in the foreseeable future - not even sure if it can be. Not in its current form.

we dont need the eu to protect workers rights, such a scaremongering falsehood

unlucky the point is that the benefits outweigh the payments, even to the bureaucrats . Otherwise noone would bother staying in.

This thread is so depressing.

Characterising those who want to vote leave as thick racists betrays the prejudices of those posting. I know some awfully thick people who want to stay, but I am fair minded enough to think that many of the pro Euro voters have thought about it and have good reasons, rather than just despising anyone who has a different view to me.

Tony Benn wanted out. Was he a thick racist? Jeremy Corbyn seems less than keen. What about him?

Nearly there is a strong argument that the EU is on the brink of collapse regardless of what UK does. Its a failed experiment but no one can bring themselves to admit it.

Humphrey, it doesn't matter whether people are so called thick or not though, they have a right to vote. I know someone with endless degrees and they want to vote in because they believe their house price will drop .

Of course people should vote!!! However they vote.

People on this thread are saying you must vote, especially if you agree with me, as everyone who doesn't take my position is a thick racist (paraphrased). I was pointing out it was arrogant and annoying.

hairy jeeze. scarmongering falsehood. I don't get why the dramatic language in what is a respectful debate mostly! What people are saying is that we are guaranteed certain rights as part of the EU. if we leave, the Govt has more opportunities to slash them.

Knowing IDS, Gove, Bojo etc's ideology, and Priti Patel's exact statement to the Institute of Directors that Leave would plan to cut social legislation....

kitty do the benefits outweigh the payments though? Where does that extra money come from?
You pay another person to work in a factory to increase production so you have more product to sell, so you make more money - as long as you can sell all that you make and you make enough net profit on each item it is worth doing. That person adds value.
You can make something a bit special -so people are prepared to spend a bit more on it - that adds value.
That's not how the EU works ...so how does it add value?
Does it mean that people (in the whole of the EU) have to pay more for things to cover the cost?
It has to come from somewhere...
(And it is a genuine question .. I won't be online for a while now though but hopefully back later)

If all votes had to be cast based on sound macroeconomic knowledge about 200 would be cast nationwide! FGS, if you have an opinion, vote. All the other ignorant, misinformed people around are going to, so you surely can't be any worse in your opinion than them. Besides, if lack of knowledge is hampering you, how about spending the next two weeks figuring out which side deserves your vote?

Remember that voting is your democratic right and your duty as a British citizen. Please don't throw away this privilege that people around the world have died for and that millions more are still denied.

unlucky yep - as above by about a factor of 10. really, if there was no benefit, there would be no members!!

The point is that through streamlining the market, removing obstables, doing things like standardising certain regulations across the EU it becomes a lot easier and cheaper to trade, for example. That's where the money comes from and one of the reasons why leaving will be such a kick to the UK economy.

Not only could there be tariffs on the goods, but non-tariff regulations will become difficult.

Read an article earlier re Pensions - Baroness Alltman claiming an EU directive of 2008 is protecting something that British people (and the likes of the Baroness) had campaigned for themselves and came to fruition in a British Pensions Act 2004.

British democracy affords a voice and a modus for tenacious campaigners ...

"The current debate over UK membership of the EU is producing no lack of hyperbole on either side. Crediting vaguely worded directives for the achievements of very specific UK measures made some years earlier must certainly be counted with such hyperbole.

The truth is that occupational pensions are protected because when peoples' lives and livelihoods are ruined, British democracy affords a voice and a modus for tenacious campaigners: campaigners like the noble Baroness used to be. "

Yes, the EU works very well for lots of people - and they are making a fortune out of it.

Just that it is at the expense of the poorest in society I'm afraid.

Unemployment all over Europe. Wages and quality of life are down for our poorest.

The system works on big business lobbying EU. It is why the likes of Goldman Sachs are keen we stay - to steady the ship for the newcomers joining so they can lend money (as they did to Greece).

However, smaller British businesses - JCB yesterday for instance, are happy to leave.

The "ignorance" mentioned regarding voters in general, I do find offensive and arrogant.

There are people that don't know very much about EU - however, I've found them to be fairly evenly spread on remain and leave.

Some of the most ignorant have been the "virtue signalling" types.

"What does it say about me?" types. Worried that someone will call them a racist because they've looked into how the EU works; how it impacts various communities in our country; how it impacts in other countries (Greece, Italy banks); how it affects small business and have then come to their very own conclusion: that it is a political experiment on the ropes.

Vote, that's the only thing most of us want - that everyone does vote.
I hope we vote to stay in but I don't suggest those who want to leave are all racists or antying like that. Bamford is being very silly with his choice but that's his democratic right. The fact he wrote to 6000 workers saying he wants us to leave was not the right thing to do. Most companies are not taking sides and leaving workers to make up their minds.

I am a small business. I am better in than out.

YABU to not vote especially if you are female. Women died for your privilege.

The thing about getting some of the EU £380 million a week back is that we don't get it back to spend where we decide. We are told where to spend it. There might be greater needs but we are told by Brussels where it has to be spent. I don't agree with that.