AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

If you are Remain op please do vote. We need you.

However I do agree with your points. I'm so bloody angry about the entire referendum debacle.

But I see no compelling argument to leave. No one on that team is making any sense at all. AFAICS every one of their arguments has been shot through with strong and compelling counter arguments.

I'm thinking that I'll vote with my gut and that is to leave. I love Europe, have family all over Europe. I am not a racist. My grandparents were Irish immigrants. But it is possible to rule ourselves and still love Europe, enjoy European products etc. Lets make it easier for all nationalities to come to the UK if they can benefit our economy. What's wrong with that?

The whole thing has been a farce with wild claims and lies from both sides of the fence. As a result I have no bloody idea how I am going to vote but whatever the result I will now worry if I did or did not do the right thing.

My biggest concern about leaving is that we could end up with that faux buffoon Boris in No 10 with the even more terrifying prospect of Trump in the White House. God help us all if that is the future.

I've posted too much on this issue but I really am getting worried that we are going to vote to leave. Nobody on the "leave" side is making a cogent argument for why it's good. The Little Englander thing just doesn't work.

I do think the EU needs proper reform, there are too many people making too much money out of it. My father told me years ago that I should get a job working for it! But we get far more out of being in it than the downsides.

If we stay in nothing will change for us in our everyday lives. But if we leave, well there will be big changes and I can't see any of them being good.

Schaeuble is a prat however. Whether or not the UK (or England) has access to the single market after we leave the EU is not his decision to make.

Sorry kitty you haven't really answered me - explained how the EU adds value...if you are a business that wishes to trade within the EU maybe - but what if you don't - you are a plumber or have a restaurant (as my DP did) or run a small service industry - what do you gain (apart from a headache with regulations) being in the EU?
And where does the money come from to pay the bureaucrats? If we put in X amount and get back more (not directly) how does that work? Where does that money come from?
Why are there members? Maybe because originally it was purely a trading agreement that has grown massively (out of control!). Lots of the new countries that are joining are poorer countries -it makes sense to them they get more out than they put it (we effectively subsidise them)...
It is why the SNP are pro-remain - an independent Scotland would need to be propped up by the EU - they would get more out in than they put in. They have more chance of getting in if the UK as a whole remain in Europe. If the UK leaves they would have to apply as new members and they might not get accepted.
User -don't know what small business you are in that is better in than out...I'd be really interested to know.

Name - nothing to do with little Englander - everything to do with democracy - the EU is not democratic and badly needs reforming (as even Corbyn says). It has done for years and years - if we haven't managed it so far what makes you think we can now?

Unlucky -I answered you ages ago on how stuff is changing with regards to transparency and democracy in the EU - of course more needs to be done. Wondering if you looked at that.

Also wondering how it is that you think an economy works? These days we are so interconnected. Basically we get goods and services from all over the world as you know. What has been achieved in Europe is the development of a single market - no tariffs, no trade rule barriers. Your small business owner or restaurant - what are they buying not just trading. Some will be made in Europe. The point is those goods should be good quality, same standards as they can use, cheaper than if there were tariffs.

How did those goods travel to the UK? Perhaps on a transport corridor with massively shortened timelines because of no borders. Driven by drivers who should adhere to working time directives therefore stop enough and drive trucks that have to comply with air quality guidelines to reduce pollution. Or through a rail/ short sea shipping corridor partially financed by the EU.

Is it food they're importing? How do they know if it's a good standard?
Is it electrical goods? Who came up with the standard European wise energy efficiency guidelines like A, AA etc - and had the clout to make manufacturers use it consistently across the EU?

You didn't answer where the money came from...unless you believe it comes from outside the EU it is coming from the consumers one way or another within the EU. It has to be...
As to A+ ratings etc - I have strong environmental beliefs - but I think energy ratings are bollocks. We are having the wool pulled over our eyes...
We have Dyson and Miele fighting between themselves over if their vacuum cleaners really do use as little energy as they say they do.
Washing machines that don't rinse properly unless you use the 'extra water' feature , dishwashers that run hours long eco programs, sensor tumble dryers that cut out before clothes are actually dry - so they can get their AAA+ ratings and lull people into thinking they are being environmentally aware - but actually when they use them so they work they aren't any where near as efficient. And all built to fail after a certain amount of use -to keep consumerism going - but actually harming the environment.
People driving massive cars with impressive emissions (and we know how they get those...) and fantastic miles per gallon rates - except they were achieved with cars so stripped down they have even had their brake discs removed...
The same with offering us incentives to use renewable energy -and land fill tax so tons of plastic get shipped off to poorer countries for sorting -or dumped in landfill there (or actually I sometimes wonder if they contribute to the amount of plastic debris in the oceans ).
Big business needs us to be consumers - the EU (as a friend to big business and in its own right ) needs us to be consumers - the environmental stuff is all whitewash...
(tbf though I would say actually all Western governments need us to be consumers)

It seems that most 'remain' voters don't want to vote. Well that will be a VERY stupid thing to do.

None of the environmental stuff is perfect, but explain to me how it would be done better in one market with a government who's not that interested = and where the minute you try and do stricter standards business says - oh no it's uncompetitive!

I'm not saying Brexit will be better for the environment - honestly I don't think it would make that much difference - you said how great is it to have A ratings etc - whereas I would rather we had water usage and electricity usage for a standard 30 deg wash - you can compare the figures rather than oh thats aaa+ - that must be efficient.

As to the thing about food - I would rather we bought British where possible...and try and use seasonal ingredients. (I tend to do so now on a personal level - he sold the restaurant as all the paperwork made it just too much hassle...)
Good quality -don't we have better animal welfare standards than the rest of the EU - I know we are nicer to pigs at least. (And veal calves -although I think they might have banned crating now?)

And you don't need someone to tell you whether ingredients are good quality - you can usually tell by appearance and taste...
As to electrical safety - aren't we the only place in the EU that has safety outlet sockets - that need earth pins to open the live connector?

unlucky surely you realise that in today's world you need to take these actions at scale? I also didn't ask you about your preferences - you said of what value is it to Britain's business owners.
What do you think the value of infrastructure is for example? It's far more than the cost of building it.

Staying in is better for the environment and for British businesses too who only trade with the UK and British families.

Everyone in my family (both Thatcheritss and Corybnites) is voting remain and they will be out in force and all exercising their vote. So I am hoping lal remainers will be out there voting. Do vote everyone on mumsnet whatever your view. We need people to be involved and make their choice.
It is the young parents on this board (very busy with babies or working plus babies with hardly a second free ) who need to vote otherwise we will find it is only the OAPs out there voting for whom it is the highlight of their day. That would skew the results as those of the older people who are uneducated are tending to the leave camp whcih is a very silly decision ont heir part which will mean their grandchildren suffer. This is a decision young people will be most affected by and their vote is particularly important.

kitty sigh - you still haven't told me where the money to pay the bureaucrats comes from ...so I am guessing you must be one of those who believes in the magic money tree?
What has the infrastructure in the UK got to do with being in the EU?
I am pretty sure the EU isn't contributing towards HS2 (of which I have mixed feelings of the need) or helping to maintain our roads? Or funding the New Forth Bridge? (I could be wrong...but I don't think so -haven't seen EU flags plastered all over them -which they usually are - and it would only be our own money they were using anyway... )
user that is a bit of a veiled insult to the leavers - maybe the older generation are leavers because they remember the UK before the common market? They remember the UK introducing workers rights, anti-discrimination and equal pay acts etc pre the EU - they have confidence that the British people on the whole are advocates for justice and fair play - they will do the right thing for the most powerless in society.

They voted the first time round and realise the EU as it stands now is not what they voted for?
They know we need to take back control of our own affairs...they can remember the communist block, know things can change rapidly. They appreciate what a frail thing freedom and democracy actually are? They know the value of democracy. They have heard hundreds of times about how we can change the EU from within - and it hasn't happened.
They have life experience. Which we obviously don't value any more - other cultures appreciate the wisdom, knowledge of their elders.
I remember myself as an older teen - I thought I knew everything. Now I am older I know I was wrong. I'm not a pensioner! But I am old enough to realise in another 30 years or so I'll think back to the me of today and roll my eyes at my naivety.

I think the out voter's grand children will suffer if we stay in. Great post previous poster.

unlucky it's obvious where the money comes from. The UK (and other MS) budget. Which comes from tax etc. The point is that it yields benefits in other areas. Probably about 10x the value. I don't understand why you've listed a random sey of infrastructure projects . Why don't you look at the investment eg in Cornwall and Ireland if you want to understand what I'm talking about.

by the way seems majority of your colleagues disagree on the impact on science : twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/741540549115576322

On the EE ratings like AA etc. First of all they're being reviewed. Secondly do you think the UK will stop using them if we leave? No. Because manufacturers work on a bigger scale than single countries these days. If we leave then we still have to use the ratings, but have no input into their revision and meanwhile have to pay an extra trade tariff on their import or export.

unlucky green is it so bad that a miniscule portion of the the UK'S budget - think it's 0,3 or something is allocated by our government to an organisation which is coordinating projects and investment across Europe? Which is considering the trends and overall connectivity across the EU? Like where the infrastructure blockages are?

And then applied for by us? Regions get a lit of choice here.

kitty 'paid for by taxes' - where do you think taxes come from? And very easy to say 'probably 10x the value' but the hard facts?
I just thought of UK infrastructure projects - and those are the two biggest off the top of my head...
Didn't Cornwall used to have a fishing industry? And now it needs investment...
I am no longer in science - I am completely disillusioned - there are huge issues with the way science is funded that imo doesn't encourage good thorough useful science. (It is a worldwide problem). There is a hell of a lot money wasted, things done incompletely, mistakes made that are never acknowledged to further individual's careers.. Paul Nurse taking that stance is not surprising - there is a mentality that more money would make things better -but actually the way the money is distributed and used I think is the real problem. (Although he did a report for the government and I agree with lots of what he said) As to the paperwork for immigration - I would say an exaggeration - the places I have worked it is mainly HR that does that and they are used to doing it...so find it quite straightforward. I would be surprised if he was dealing with that himself...
AA ratings etc - I was just pointing out you seemed to think they are a good idea and we should be grateful for them - I don't and I'm not...
It may be a small amount of our budget - but it is a lot of money. We get told how we can spend the money we get back - have to apply for it...so if you needed to borrow a tenner instead of me handing it to you I give to someone else who charges a handling fee and then you have to request it from them, explaining why you need it ... and hope they are prepared to let you have it...
Infrastructure bottlenecks through Europe - only our problem if we are in the EU. Why should be pay to sort someone else's problem out? So they can export goods to us more cheaply so increase competition to our producers?

unlucky it is our problem if there are bottlenecks. Cos they happen on our island as much as in the EU. I'm really getting the impression that you don't see how connected we are with Europe on trade, food , networks and how fundamentally that's a good thing because it's allowed the UK to be an investment powerhouse (a great option for companies right next to the EU who'll have access to the 500 million people in that market ) and allowed UK companies and citizens to benefit.

I think you're also missing the main point of that article - not just about the money but the networks. And networks take work as I'm sure you're aware. They don't just magically appear.

And the only reason Cornwall needs investment is due to issues in the fishing industry?? Really you're better than that unlucky. There been structural issues for years.

Plus if you're pro environment you should know that the rate of fishing was not sustainable across the EU. ( Nb I'd agree there are structural probs with eu fishing policy but that's more about what's allowed beyond EU watrs)

kitty so EU funding is helping bottle necks in the UK? I thought the Forth bridge was a bottle neck ...main trade route up the East coast of Scotland...I know eg the Amazon distribution centre in Fife suffered when they had to close the current one for a structural fault last December. I have also been stuck in queues waiting to get over it... But actually road building is not very green.
Neither is encouraging eg transport of food that we can grow in the UK over a thousand miles eg strawberries and tomatoes etc from Spain. As well as encouraging illegal water usage www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/15/stop-spains-strawberry-growers-sucking-key-wetland-dry-say-supermarkets
I think you can't get your head around the concept that we don't need to be as connected with Europe and that might not be such a bad thing.
The fishing thing - I know little about - but I do know many years ago when I was a chef in the SE I used to use a fish supplier who brought fish directly from the coast and remember him complaining about prices and availability due to foreign fishing boats - and also there was some supply problem with Scottish lobsters - that was due to the Spanish. Fishing quotas were needed but competition with EU trawlers ...don't think helped our fishing industry - do you? Just found this link from a couple of years ago (I know it is DM) www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2854348/One-Dutch-trawler-gets-quarter-England-s-entire-fish-quota-English-fishermen-allowed-two-crates-worth-50.html

unlucky makes good points - there are good points on both sides but none convince me to vote out.

Doing things together with our friends in the rest of Europe works well.
I am one of the older posters on here so also remember the pre UK being in the EU period. Despite that knowledge I still think we are better off in. None of the remainers think the EU is perfect of course but we are better off in.

If we leave we have to follow EU rules ( to trade there) but have no say in them. It puts us in a worse position.

user I agree about both sides - but I can't get past the democracy issue- just that, for me, is the reason to get out - whilst we have the opportunity.
And the more I read the more I become convinced that leaving is a good thing. But those issues are less important than the absolutely fundamental democracy issue.

Unlucky - it's not just spent on the continent. And this is only one type of funding I've used as an example. Also not just roads. There's this thing called the Ten T networks - also rail etc. Plus an idea about motorways of the sea - ie networks for short sea shipping that operate more efficiently.

On fishing there's quite an interesting thread elsewhere on the EU referendum talk. The truth is we have massively over fished. And a lot of the complaints from fishermen is about eg the discard ban and also about the ways that the UK govt has implemented legislation.

Honestly fishing is to me thing that has to be regulated in cooperation across international waters but basically it's v difficult because fishermen don't like being told they have to fish less.

As I said there are massive issues elsewhere where I really disagree with EU fishing policy but not the need to manage it across the EU.

Unlucky - can I ask if you looked at my response to you higher up the thread on democracy?

Also unlucky suggest you look at the 'fish fight' campaign