AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

mollie the scary thing is - a vote for the EU is a vote for that kind of poster and poster who do not think the poor of the UK should have a say in their future!

The irony is I bet those posters think themselves morally and intellectually superior when its just very Stalin esq in reality. No respect for democracy.

Lurking you have missed the point, the point is what the out going president says does not mean he speaks for congress. People in there and in the government there have many different ideas and some like Trump feel we should get out and some like Cruz feel what Obama said was despicable.

This is in the response to the poster who says " we do not listen to what the US tells us".

Great post Euripidesralph Wed 08-Jun-16 16:37:27

Lurking you have missed the point, the point is what the out going president says does not mean he speaks for congress. People in there and in the government there have many different ideas

Exactly

So how can BoJo and Co (did anyone watch that as a kid in the 1970s ?) claim to know what will happen in the event of Brexit ?

Am I alone in feeling you have rather proved my point ?

It's a farce in the sense that Shiny Cameron only called it because he couldn't control his own party.

But please please please vote!

Lurking, my post was in response to the person who said we do not listen to the US.
So.......who are we supposed to listen too? An outgoing President, a possible new one? Who?

Mother I am not sure if you have followed any of these threads but many posters have been derogatory about the peoples, ability to make a vote on this. They dismiss people with valid views as daily mail reading nuts.

People voting Brexit will find themselves sadly disappointed when Boris or Gove sell them down the river back to Brussels by agreeing to whatever is necessary to keep them in government i.e. whatever it takes to keep the economy on track

No.

Lurking, my post was in response to the person who said we do not listen to the US.
So.......who are we supposed to listen too? An outgoing President, a possible new one? Who?

To answer that question requires a working knowledge of the US political system (more specifically the constitution). Given that from what I have seen, Brexiters grasp of the UK political system is shaky (and of the EU political system even less) I really would step away from double-guessing what the US reaction to a Brexit may be.

I suspect the post-Brexit landscape will be remarkably similar to the "big changes" we were promised before 2010 about how parliament and UK politics were to be transformed by a new era of transparency and high standards.

If you're happy we do have the "new politics" David Cameron promised to deliver, then you'll probably be happy with whatever the Brexiteers cook up.

kitty I have read the first link in detail -and I donb't recall it saying that at all - can you quote the bit you are on about?
the second link - it shows how they are contemplating how they can side step democracy -those pesky MEPs could slow things down - if they COULD if nec side step it - there would be complaints etc so in THIS CASE they won't -as it isn't worth it - but what if it was worth it? It establishes they think they could legally do it.
The third link - we would have more influence only if we aligned ourselves with the biggest party in the EU parliament - which is centre right anyway and we might not agree with - but otherwise we have no influence. Have at look at the requirements to form a party in the EU parliament.
You don't comment on the Irish MEP and him having to sign something saying he would not tell the people who elected him anything about what he was going to see - that he would have to vote on - he couldn't ask their opinion - and also he could only read it in that room - not even take notes, if there was something he wanted to look into further...
It isn't about loss of sovereignty (although I disagree it is the same as WTO) that worries me as much as the attitude - we don't need to be open about things - better to try and conceal things - keep the voting public in ignorance - the same with that link about Economic policies - nasty democracies/voters getting in the way.
Brexit the movie - I agree light on facts but a good starting point - where has it all been debunked? Have you got the link? I haven't seen it and I vaguely looked...
I don't think anyone disagrees that there is a democratic deficiency in the EU - it is just how we can remedy that - but with things like we could ignore democracy if we choose and Juncker with his dismissive attitude (and he was chosen for that role ) - I really don't think we can - it will just get worse.

Totally agree Mollie123!
So all the leave voters are Neanderthals and closet racists?! Just because they have a different opinion to you mother?!! Bullshit!!

I think I am going to vote leave, but immigration doesn't feature greatly in my decision. Yes, I am worried about immigration and the sheer number of immigrants but that doesn't make me a racist!! The U.K. Is an island after all!

Of course it isn't racist to have concerns about unlimited free movement of people in the EU.

Conversely, Brexit would enable Britain to welcome people from all continents around the world on an equal basis, not just those from Little Europe.

unlucky - in the first link:

Withdrawal: a final solution?
Opponents of the EU often couch their arguments in democratic
terms....For some people, withdrawal would seem to be the best way
torevitalisedemocracy. But how much would leaving the EU reduce its undemocratic effects on Britain? It all depends on the relationship the UK builds with the EU after it leaves.

By leaving the EU, Britain could end up with even less voice in key European decisions. The Norwegian government (not a member
of the EU) has recently completed a comprehensive study of
Norway’s relationship with the EU through the European Economic
Area. The chair of the committee which wrote it, Professor Fredrik
Sejersted, described Norway as “almost as deeply integrated into
the EU as the UK”.

The report comments on the nature of Norway’s relationship with the EU, saying: “During the 1990s the EEA Agreement was often referred to as a ‘fax-democracy’. These days it is perhaps more appropriate to say that Norway ‘downloads’ policy and legislation from Brussels.”

For a country such as Norway, with a population of only just over five million, this is perhaps not such a problem – the country maintains significant lobbying facilities in Brussels and it is unlikely that Norway would hold much weight in internal EU deliberations were it a member, given its population size.

But for a country the size of the UK, with the EU’s third largest population, an EEA-style relationship would certainly leave the UK with significantly less influence over portions of European law.

By the way I'm pretty shocked - have you seen that Leave put up a fake voting website? Which would only subscribe you to the Leave voting list.

Shows that Vote leave is afraid of more people registering....
politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/campaign-to-give-the-british-people-a-voice-doesnt-like-the-ideaof-them-registering-to-vote/

And they criticise the EU for a lack of democracy!!!

Sorry wrong link, but the other one also proves that point; politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/vote-leave-quietly-delete-its-fake-register-to-vote-page-after-being-exposed/

kitty
But how much would leaving the EU reduce its undemocratic effects on Britain? It all depends on the relationship the UK builds with the EU after it leaves.
By leaving the EU, Britain could end up with even less voice in key European decisions.
an EEA-style relationship would certainly leave the UK with significantly less influence over portions of European law.

But that is only if we have a similar relationship to the EU as Norway - an EEA type relationship - as it clearly states.
But we aren't Norway - we don't need to sign up to the same deal ...

jelliedeels if you want another view: blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/

A vote for Brexit is unquestionably economically riskier than a vote to remain. Yet don’t automatically read risk as a bad thing. It simply means there’s more uncertainty – a greater variance of possible outcomes. Much of the debate stems around ‘free trade’ issues – which in simple terms mean no tariffs or taxes on imports or exports between countries.

Leaving the EU risks us being left on the sidelines. A shrinking power, spurned after a bitter divorce from our neighbours, who, wanting to discourage other leavers, offer us hideous trading conditions, while the rest of the world sees us as too small to bother with.

Or we could in the long run become a nimble low-tax, low-regulation, tiger economy. Trading unfettered with all nations across the globe, able to create our own rules and speedily reacting as a niche player to a changing world (though whether that’s good or bad depends whether you’re a Brexiteer from the political left or right).

The likely truth is of course somewhere between the two. But most independent analysis suggests Brexit will be detrimental to the economy, and on balance I think a wobble of economic uncertainty is more likely, at least in the short to medium term. Though again, it’s about chance, so it doesn’t mean it’s definite, and of course money isn’t the sole issue.

A vote IN has a level of uncertainty too. The future is always a journey, and the economies and politics of some EU countries are far from stable. But overall less change is likely.

unlucky no we're not Norway. But do you seriously think that the UK will step away from the single market - the EEA? That's the issue. If we do then trade wise we're f**ked. We're not going to get a better deal than Norway either.

Independent have the same story
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-accused-of-disenfranchising-people-trying-to-register-to-vote-with-misleading-website-a7068661.html
I don't think it particularly misleading - it says Vote Leave all over it ...
This comment on your link sums it up I think
It seems that if this was an attempt by the Leave campaign to trick people into not voting it would only make sense if they posed it as a Remain website – otherwise they’d only be tricking Leave voters into not voting.

unlucky it came up when you google 'register to vote'. At the minimum it is extremely misleading

unlucky at the least it's extremely misleading. it comes up when you google 'register to vote'. then it says 'registration in process'

I think it depends on what we are offered - I think if we are offered a Norway deal yes we would be better off stepping away.
As you said we have no way of knowing what will happen economically - or what the other net contributors will do if we vote leave - but I do know democracy is important - with democracy the people can change things without resorting to revolution ...and as I keep saying the EU is not democratic...

Sorry had an issue with posting

Could those who say "it will be rigged" explain how they think this will happen?

Because you say it doesn't mean it's true. The things you have mentioned are about a democratic deficit. That requires work but it doesn't mean the EU is undemocratic.

No access to the EEA is economic suicide by the way.

kitty there has been talk about the democratic deficit for at least 20 yrs now...if we haven't change it from within by now - why do you think we suddenly can work on it?

Switzerland isn't a member of the EEA but is in the single market - agree they don't have a fantastic deal either ...but it proves there are other models to look at ...