AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

scaryteacher so why don't you outline what you think it means? i guess you spend every day examining the implications of EU pronouncements like I do??

Did anyone watch the debate last night? It was really interesting. It saddens me that the stay campaign seems to boil down to a group of people shouting "you are a racist and a bigot if you vote out"; and accusing spokespeople of scaremongering. There were some very interesting points raised by the audience for the leave side and I believe you need to listen to and consider both to make an informed decision - not stick your fingers in your ears going "la la la, I'm not listening to you!"

Frankly, I don't care what the US thinks. This isn't their country. I think the US wants the UK in the EU for the benefit of the US, so their preferences aren't really a top priority for me.

It's interesting to note that those that want to remain are constantly saying so many are voting to leave because they are bigoted and uninformed. Does this sound familiar? Remember Scotland's referendum? Same kind of thing was happening.

Many people that want to leave are making that decision because they have taken the time to educate themselves and have come to that decision based on what they've learned. I think that saying they are bigoted and uninformed simply based on how they want to vote is quite arrogant. It smacks of "they don't agree with me, so clearly they are nasty or stupid."

It's pretty obvious that Cameron debating Farrage (instead of Johnson or Gove) is an attempt to make people connect Farrage/UKIP to the "Leave" group and make them look bad. I'm not a huge fan of Farrage or UKIP, but that doesn't mean I want to remain in the EU. This is not a general election.

Nearlyhallokitty ? Wrong thread for that comment. You need the one on the EU referendum section about talking the OP out of Brexit.

AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

... and not to vote?

I support remain

I completely agree its a complete farce.

However there are people trying to manipulate you into apathy and not voting as part of the election strategy.

Therefore if you do support one side, do vote despite all of that as its important and really could affect the outcome of the referendum.

There are people, quit literally betting on it.

OP here - I understand the arguments being made about every vote counts, etc, and I feel as though I am more likely to vote than I did, but I just feel uncomfortable taking part in something I'm opposed to when I don't have to. Grrr...

Sucks doesn't it?
But the entire election strategy is based on this.
It makes me angry.

Sadly the underlying problem to that is precisely voter apathy and this is well understood as a third option to split the vote and is deliberately used now.

The only way around that, is for frustrated people to get involved in politics themselves and engage those like themselves on issues that interest them. It does not necessarily have to be on a national level. Engagement at a local level has a knock on effect about the quality of debate. If people higher up see something has a vote winning potential for them, they then are interested.

Not much consolation for the particular vote though.

Mother thats a dreadful comment implying on one side there are just racists and bigots but on the other your intelligent and voting after well thought out process.

I would remind you of Archbishop Wellbys comments that people who are worried about immigration are not racsit.

I would also urge you to read this, By Labour MP Frank Field

www.frankfield.co.uk/latest-news/articles/news.aspx?p=1021270

It is the poorest in our communities, those whose choices in life are already by far the most restricted, whose standard of living is most adversely affected by the arrival of a record number of newcomers

^^ Its easy to dismiss this claim isn't it, when its in the DM, you can sneer at it, call it false libelous reporting. If Farage says this, you can also write it off from a high horse as xenophobic racist rubbish.

I am interested to see how so many on here who like to posture as caring people respond to this.

This is not a conservative MP either, its a Labour MP, for one of the poorest most deprived areas of the UK. He is begging you to vote for the poor. It cannot be clearer and thank god this man, has spoken out. Labour wouldn't be in the mess its in, if more Labour MP's had spoken out like this for the people they are supposed to represent.

Hairy Muff

There are Labour voters on both sides, who both see the issue of EU as about the poor and how it will effect them.

The argument is bigger than that.

What I don't see is any debate on measures to improve life opportunities, education, mobility amongst deprived communities, bring jobs to these communities, improvement of transport, rehabilitation programs for those with criminal records.

Nope. Its just about immigrants and no one is driving the debate to the underlying issues properly.

To improve things for the poor, it needs a wholesale strategy from lots of different angles. Not a focus on a single issue.

In terms of shit giving for the poor, unless you talk about things in these terms, then actually you really are only being half arsed about it.

(Note here - missed opportunity for Remain Campaign as much as the Leave campaign find this convenient. Which does make you wonder how much shit giving is going on all round)

Thanks Red, Nice total dismissal of Franks Blog, a man who has lived and breathed the direct issues facing the poor in his constituency.

The argument is not bigger than the poor and I can see from your post
( and your many other posts) you simply don't get it. And I suspect you never will. You had no idea what life is like for the people at the bottom our of society. Hopefully other people who are more fortunate do get it and will find compassion in their hearts to listen to this mans Plea and vote out.

Mother, yes your comment is awful, its saying leave are racists and bigots and remain are thoughtful, intelligent considered voters.

I don't actually believe that leaving the EU will help the poor of the country

So you refuse to listen to a man who has lived and breathed these issues and seen direct effects of immigration from deprived countries onto the a poor ward.

Very convenient for you.

Yes whatever Hairy.

I liked this letter today, achievements of the EU - the benefits of scale:

1. clearing up of the beaches - and climate change policies
2. transition of eastern European Countries from Soviet domination to democracy
3. only the EU stands up to major monopolies operating on a world scale - ie Microsoft, and Google. This for me is really a big point and why I disagree with those who say that remain is all about pandering to big business. With massive multinationals like Microsoft, it's really only been the EU that has challenged them.
4. development and enforcement of financial regulation

Frank is the only man who has that experience and his is the only opinion.

Yes. That's right.

Shall we crown him the messiah now or later?

Frank Field I get, he does have some actual experience. But i'm confused as to why we should be interested in what an Archbishop has to say. The church of England is one of the wealthiest 'organisations' in the UK, so is hardly an expert on poverty. And I fail to see how immigration is now a church concern. Speaks volumes for 'love thy neighbour' though.

hairymuff was just reading the money saving expert Martin Lewis - blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/
He has a very balanced approach but does conclude that it is riskier to leave and, with caveats says : “On balance of probability, it is more likely we’ll have less money in our pockets if we vote to leave”.

So how will that help the poor? who will be disproportionately affected by even minor swings.

only the EU stands up to major monopolies operating on a world scale

And the US government (for those following the Safe Harbor debate).

To take just one example of the cloud-cuckoo land the leave camp inhabit, lets look at the EU directive on personal data - protecting it from being shipped wholesale outside the EU (including the US). (www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/07/germany_fines_adobe_data_privacy/)

So the UK does leave the EU - trebles all round and we can start the mass transfer of UK citizens data (well what the US hasn't already got) to Uncle Sam. However, the EU rules about their citizens data will still apply. So no business based in the EU will be allowed to do any business with the UK unless the UK provides a guarantee that it will protect that data.

Of course, you could imagine that outside the EU, the UK would have better protection for personal data.

And you'd be wrong - (viz. the current Communications Data Bill)

So now we have a UK outside the EU, but unable to business with any EU country unless it follows EU data protection - for EU citizens. But UK citizens ? Who cares ? Not the EU. Nor the UK government either.

And that's one example.

Oh, and no trade treaty in the world would be able to bypass the EUs data protection requirements.

I suspect one reason why US companies want a remain is it means they won't have to relocate out of the UK. Something they would be required to consider if the UK cannot offer the guarantees the EU would require of a trading partner.

Sorry to have managed to write so much without a mention of immigration.

I thought this a most sensible and well thought out summing up of the debate.

The LSE’s Nicholas Barr explains why he will be voting to Remain in the EU referendum – citing a wide range of arguments about sovereignty, migration, international influence, regulation, democracy, trade and the single market to make his case. He concludes the economic and foreign policy costs of leaving are large, and the gains in sovereignty in today’s connected world are limited.

read it here

OP please vote.

Another thing...
If we do vote to come out who's got a plan?