AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

For those confused by tortoise's post above, I'm pretty certain that when she says Leave she means Stay.

OP please vote - you have a feeling about what you want to happen to the country.

If you don't vote and we leave the EU it'll always play on your mind that 'if only everyone who wanted to stay in EU voted then things might be different"

I fundamentally disagree with having a mob rule vote on something so important as whether we remain part of a political and economical institution or leave it. However I will be voting with my gut feeling only because I'd regret it if I didn't and the result was opposite to my preference.

YANBU to suggest it's a farce. Nobody knows what will happen so they're giving some likely outcomes plus some hopes plus a large sprinkling of making it up as they go along.

We still have to go and vote though (although it would be fantastic if not one person voted and everybody spoiled their ballots by writing "Give us some better information"), so YABU for saying that you might not. I can't really summon up any enthusiasm for it though.

If you'd read all of my posts Hairy rather than hone in on the one part you feel you can needle me with, you'll see that I believe in democracy, despite its limitations. Which is ultimately why I will vote. And it just so happens my vote will cancel out yours. What others decide to do with theirs is of course a matter for them to decide, if they can find their way through the melee to make what they believe is an informed decision.

I just wouldn't want the offer of a referendum to become the default choice every time the waters get a bit muddy in Parliament, particularly on topics about which very few people actually feel well enough informed about to make a decision, while senior politicians on all sides continue to obfuscate. Since you ask, the default to referendum is also already offered locally with policing services. If a police and crime commissioner wants to increase precept above the government cap, they must open it out to local referendum, despite already having been elected to make these kinds of decisions. This happened in Bedfordshire recently. So you see, I do believe there is something of a 'referendum creep' occurring that I wouldn't want to become commonplace.

but let us vote to change the voting system so it's actually fair

We had our chance, so no use complaining. That horse is well and truly dead for at least a generation.

YANBU to think it's a farce, but as you support one side YABU to not vote.

(of course I could be a little biased because I want to remain)

Of course endless refereda effectively absolve politicians of anything

Don't like ? You voted for it.

yes it is a farce - boris johnson and michael gove were not particularly Brexiteers but have gone into it as if it was a debate at boarding school where they can point score etc and further their 'careers' rather than a world changing event.

Also it was not something that people felt strongly about and even now understand the implications of and so are likely to vote quite randomly.

So I would say vote to stay in (unless you are certain that voting out will make the world a better place)

You make a convincing argument for dictatorship there Cheeze. Perhaps we should just end this democratic nonsense and trust the all powerful masters of Germany the EU, to create an inclusive, folk community which will find a role for one and all of us ????

You’re right about the tory power games but we are in a position where we are risking an economic crisis a way to settle a tory internal dispute. Farage triggered this whole nonsense by taking tory votes and forcing them to promise the electorate something that no serious political party wants.

OP here - I understand the arguments being made about every vote counts, etc, and I feel as though I am more likely to vote than I did, but I just feel uncomfortable taking part in something I'm opposed to when I don't have to. Grrr...

No vote = No say

YANBU the campaign on both sides has been a farce, full of personal point scoring and party politics.

I personally feel very disillusioned with it all. I am deeply sceptical about the tit for tat claims on made by each side and even more sceptical about the personal motivations of those that have been wheeled out to make such claims.

Frankly the whole thing stinks and we the public have been seriously let down.

I am completely undecided at present and find it unbelievable that so many people (in real life) seem to be basing their decision on one issue in isolation i.e. immigration.

However, saying that, I do find myself increasingly worried by the rise of the far right in Europe and wanting to distance us from all that. I will vote, though, and hope to have made up my mind before hand and not just vote on impulse.

sea I am voting on one issue -the EU is undemocratic. And I have looked into it - and IMO it really is -shockingly so.
And that's it as far as I am concerned - everything else is unimportant in comparison. I think living in a democracy is non negotiable. I was dithering but after I came to that conclusion It was an easy decision...

I also suspect it may be rigged (as the Scottish indy ref may have been...) but I'll still be voting.

OP agree it's a farce. It's 1975 all over again. Wilson couldn't deal with the splits over Europe in the Labour Party so he said we'll have a referendum and when the voters have spoken, you lot will all have to shut up. It was all about him, not us. Fast forward to now and it's the same with Cameron.

YANBU.

How anyone is meant to make an informed decision based on the piss poor quality of the debate, the ever changing 'facts', the frothing hyperbole, the Tory personality campaign and the inability for anyone to make a useful indication as to what either outcome would actually look like on the other side of this, is utterly beyond me.

And, so let's say this country decides to vote out - what does that mean? Does it mean, most people think the EU is undemocratic, or that it is a poor financial investment or that this country wants to raise the drawbridge to foreigners or that this country is nostalgic for a more concrete sense of identity (or is this a conflation of the earlier point? What will it signal to our politicians about what we actually want?

And it's just as complicated if we remain.

What if I like my link to Europe and value a European identity, but I think it is undemocratic and economically suspect but I don't want to align myself with the frothing xenophobes who have over-run the leave campaign...then what?

kondo it doesn't matter who you are siding with - in 4yrs time we can have a new government...because we live in a democracy...
I really don't think we can change the EU from within - maybe actually us leaving would be the shake up it needs...and things may improve and maybe we would want to go back (and as a net contributor they would want us back...) no one knows what is going to happen but as it stands I think the only option is out.

I agree it has become a farce but please do vote especially as you want to remain. Do you really want the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Michael Gove to "win"?
I hate Cameron and the Tories but want to stay. The infighting in the Tory party is something else. Imagine that being studied in history lessons in years to come
Go use that vote!

Both sides have talked an unutterable amount of bullshit. The FB posts have been insufferable. You can’t make decisions based on what the politicians say so I’m going with the impartial opinions.

90% of economists. In
World Bank. In
World Trade organisation. In
POTUS. In
Bank of England Governor. In
OECD. In

Compare and contrast those with

Nigey farridge, man of the (pale) people.
Bojo Johnson, A man so posh he’s almost disabled by it.
Vladimir Putin. Currently testing our air defences with backfire bombers
Donald Trump. Who nigey farridge wants to be when he grows up.

Um, travelling, most of those are politicians.

As was pointed out on ITV news tonight, the 90% of economists isn't true. Of 4000 economists polled, 600 answered; of those 600, 90% wanted to remain. It's not quite the same thing is it?

POTUS - does he want us in for our benefit, or that of the U.S.?

Mark Carney - ex Goldman Sachs. Enough said.

Putin tests our defences now, as Russia has been doing for at least 30 years, and we are in the EU. The EU can do nothing about that, so staying or leaving makes no difference to that.

As to Boris being posh...Cameron and Harman aren't?

You make a good point but please vote, especially if you are for remain. Lots of ill informed people will vote and if you have an opinion surely its better to try and get the result you want.

Unlucky - very naive to think we could just go back in. It would need the unanimous approval of all member states. Highly unlikely. Not to mention that by then the UK won't exist as Scotland will undoubtedly leave.