AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

Meanwhile..fear of BREXIT leading to Asset flight. www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/investors-pull-cash-out-of-uk-assets-at-fastest-pace-since-finan/

Mother

I have been trying not to look at personalities but at the facts.
I didn't know Frank Field was pro brexit - but I have a lot of respect for Frank Field. He is a politician I really like (as close to a conviction politician as we have these days) and has a way of thinking 'outside the box' and looking at the bigger picture (and he managed to piss Blair off!)
If I had thought of him actually I would have guessed he would support Brexit.
As I said I am probrexit because of democracy but all those saying there isn't a problem with immigration -just interested to know where you live and what your situation is like?
I live in an area of low immigration so am not personally affected -I would say it isn't really a problem
But I know somewhere I used to live is seeing lots of house building etc, pressure on schools and hospitals. I think not predicting the extent of immigration in some areas and the councils not being given figures has led to them not being able to forward plan - in that area I guess 10 or so years ago they closed one primary school because lack of demand - now they are busy expanding another primary school as fast as they can to cope (to get funding, plans etc together does take quite some time) - meanwhile local children are being bused miles all over everywhere to schools with the odd spare place - neighbours - siblings even - can't get into the same school. Not good for the children - they don't have school friends who live locally, or for parents as they are less able to form relationships with other parents and also don't have as close a relationship with the school. Also not good for community spirit. If I lived there and was in that situation I would be pretty annoyed. And yes it does seem to be down to immigration.
I think if the poorer in society are complaining about the impact on them - if they are living this - we should listen - not dismiss them as racist or xenophobes or bigots.

No-one really knows what will happen if we stay either. It could get a lot worse.

What do those who complain that we don't know "what Leave would look like" manage at work, if they're given a blank sheet of paper with a project to be designed and implemented? Or if they wake up in the morning with a day off where they can choose what to do? If someone wants them to take over responsibility for something and progress it from that point?

Britain is capable of sorting itself out without the EU. There is enough intelligence, creativity and ingenuity here, that I think we should have confidence in the British people to move forward successfully. We don't need to the EU to instruct us. Those who think we can't survive outside the EU are belittling the abilities of everyone here.

unlucky the issues you mention are down to UK policies though on how to deal with immigration. And you are assuming that if we leave we stop EU immigration - not at all clear since it depends what status the UK goes for (Norway e.g. has free movement of people).

overall, for me I assess the risk is higher to the poor for leaving because of the likely economic shock.

winterbiscuit such a biased take on the remain side. no one says we won't survive, just that the risks are high of a massive economic shock and many difficulties for the UK when it comes to negotiating trade deals in an insecure world dealing with countries in a more secure position. For me it's insane not to bear that in mind. Surely by the same token you're belittling the ability of the UK to lead in the EU and make something really worthwhile?

winterbiscuit such a biased take on the remain side

If by "biased" you mean one-sided, then yes. I'm arguing for Leave and others are giving the other side, which in that case you'd also have to call that "biased".

The economy may take a turn for the worse, but it's unlikely to be "massive" as Osborne has claimed, and in the mid-to-long run may well hugely out-perform the failing EU. And for me, the referendum isn't about money, but democracy. Better poor and free than the reverse.

I'd like to see us look outwards, to migration and trade from all over the world, without the EU instructing and restricting us. Producers in the EU will still want us to buy their products at least as much as we want to buy theirs. Yes, we'll have to meet their standards, and likewise they'll need to meet ours such as the British kitemark. It's unlikely we'd have wildly different standards in any case. It's perfectly possible to trade without a "trade deal" and tariffs are so much lower than they used to be. We'll be able to regain our seat on the World Trade Organisation, and trade more freely with exciting markets worldwide.

you're belittling the ability of the UK to lead in the EU and make something really worthwhile

We've had long enough trying to do that. It hasn't worked, and Cameron's so-called "deal", even with a referendum approaching, was really weak. We need to face the fact that the EU is unreformable and wanting to be able to influence it isn't the same as that being possible. Its ideals are stuck in the 1950s and much of the UK's vision isn't the same as the EU's.

winter - it depends who is drawing on that blank piece of paper....Boris Johnson ? Michael Gove, IDS?

At least we have general elections every few years.

How do you plan to get rid of future EU leaders you don't like?

Please vote. Even if you were a brexiter I'd be asking you to vote. By posting here at all you are thinking about it and obviously have an intelligent view.

It is too important not to vote.

How do you plan to get rid of future EU leaders you don't like

There are European elections every five years.

Yes, please do vote - and I say that as someone wanting to vote Leave.

Turnout is an indicator of people caring what happens.

There are European elections every five years.

To choose MEPs who can't even propose legislation, and work for the benefit of the EU, not in the interests of the UK. To have a tiny percentage of the say but have to abide by 100 per cent of the rules. We can't influence the Commission or who the Five Presidents are. We're outvoted every time we disagree with legislation. It's distant, beaurocratic and undemocratic.

winterbiscuit we lost our position on 3% of the legislation. Now that's a tiny percentage.

MEPs do not propose the legislation but they can and do amend it, call for it, reject it and so forth. That's a misrepresentation.

The Five Presidents is not a Thing by the way, it was a grouping of people for a specific question.. Bear in mind one of them is the EP president - ie an elected MEP then elected President by the European Parliament.

And our democratically elected govt chooses the UK commissioner. The democratically elected European Parliament approves the new set of Commissioners or not. Then when it comes to legislation our democratically elected govt decides whether to support or not to support legislation and probably amends it a lot on the way.

It is as the Leave campaign aren't on the same page as each other in terms of wether they want to cut all ties or a freedom of movement deal, and that they could get a freetrade/non freedom of movement deal with Europe.

They peddling two stories to keep the leave camps on side.

That's how it's supposed to work kitty but it doesn't mention the secret trialogues where things are quickly discussed. As for the 3 per cent figure, I think it's the principle rather than the amount. It would have made no difference had we not voted at all.

Although it's a farce I'll be voting. The idea of not voting over such an important matter because I'm disgusted by this being wrapped up in Tory Party politics seems insane to me. Real cutting my nose off to spite my face stuff.

I'll be voting Remain for these reasons:

1. One side is promoting a big irrevocable change. In that case it's their responsibility to persuade me it's a good idea. That's been hopelessly lacking. I just can't imagine voting Out when no one on that side has provided a convincing picture of "Out will look like this".

2. Leave/Out are all over the place when they explain whether we will be in or out of the Single Market.

3. Whenever the Leave/Out side are asked about possible negative consequences that may come their answer is usually little more than "won't happen, coz I say so".

4. Often, when the Leave/Out side feel their arguments aren't winning they start going on about immigrants. Really? Is that what sits at the core?

5. In a side-by-side parade of horribles comparison the Leave/Out side are ghastlier by far. Imagine that lot being in charge.

I was responding to somebody actually saying that only leavers used their brains in this debate.

Motheroffourdragons You were clearly responding to me. I did not say that only leavers used their brains in this debate. I said that I was frustrated with many people on the remain side basically implying that anyone that voted for leaving was either a bigot or uninformed. At no point did I say that only leavers used their brains in this debate.

The thing about racists is that they have always been there, and sadly will likely always be there somewhere.

But some people are concerned about immigration, and not from a racist angle. Immigration is a concern, however, my concerns personally are that from non EU countries, only the wealthy have the luxury of immigrating, whereas from EU countries, it seems to be a bit of a free-for-all (with some limits, obviously). I would rather see it be more even across the board - not just for the wealthy, but with sensible controls (such as regarding criminal activity/history).

I don't like the simplistic idea that anyone that mentions immigration as a concern is racist.

Please vote, it's too important not to. It's a hard decision and yes maybe we should never have had a referendum but please take it seriously. The consequences could be huge.
Vote REMAIN

winterbiscuit I think the 3% figure is important. It shows that on the vast majority of questions the UK supports what happens. Of course, in a situation where 28 Member States vote, you are not always going to get your own way but the 3% figure shows that the UK does pretty well.

On the trialogues - i'm not sure what you're getting at here. This is where the Commission, Council and the EP meet to come to an agreement. The Council is represented by the current Presidency (rotating presidency of 6 months - it's now the Netherlands). They take a position based on the mandate agreed between all of the Member States. The Parliament is represented by the MEP who has lead the EP's Report on the issue, as well as the Chair of the relevant Committee and the Shadow Rapporteurs. In the past there was concern about how much oversight of the key MEPs there was - therefore the EP changed its procedure and the MEP needs to get their position from the whole EP Plenary.

Once the agreement between the EP & Council is reached, it has to be adopted by the EP and the Council through a vote.

It is true to say that the discussions are not webstreamed and are a bit of a nightmare to follow.

The triologue can take place in 1st reading - there's a trend towards this to avoid too lengthy decision making, but it can fail if there's no agreement and the institutions will have to go back and take another position. etc.

kitty I agree a lot of the problems were caused by the fuck up by the previous Labour government - they were expecting a much lower number of immigrants from eg Poland and unlike other EU countries didn't put a cap on it.
Therefore you can't blame local governments for not being prepared - if they were told they might get an extra 1000 people and they ended up with 10,000 - I read it takes about 10 yrs from conception to opening a new school/hospital - you have to have the land, plans, infrastructure, staff and funding.
And the flow hasn't really slowed so they are constantly playing catch up. In Europe and with Europe expanding into poorer countries because of free movement it is difficult to stop the flow whilst we are still in the EU - if nothing else but to allow time to catch up. I don't see what more the UK government can do...apart from try and stem the flow in other ways - they can't blanket cut benefits etc because the poorest people already here will suffer...and we have to get permission from the EU to treat other EU citizens differently...