To ask how Brexit would affect immigration?

[Bearbehind]

It scares me that, as a nation, we have to vote in the EU referendum as there doesn't seem to be any impartial informative advice on which to base a decision.

I think I've made my mind up based on a number of factors but, as far as I can see, the question of immigration will be make or break for many people.

I'm not sure leaving the EU will result in us being able to control immigration much better than we do now but I'm the first to admit I know very little about it.

Will it really change much?

I caught that Kasalina 😱 What a prick

What I don't get about all this scaremongering - haven't European citizens always been able to live/work/retire in other European countries, provided they fulfil that country's conditions of entry/residence? Same for UK citizens going to Europe? Why is this all seen as so impossible - people from other countries live in many countries around the world, and that's surely not going to stop.

haven't European citizens always been able to live/work/retire in other European countries, provided they fulfil that country's conditions of entry/residence

Of course they have. Depending what those conditions of residence are. £100,000 in the bank ? Married ? Children ? Right job ? Right parents ? Because that's how it used to be.

Being in the EU means you have the right of residence full stop. No strings attached.

"More Black people will be allowed into Britain'' - Farage.

Did he actually say that?

Then UKIP are not even trying to hide their racism now. It's open for everyone to see. Disgusting.

''More Black people will be allowed into Britain'' - Farage.

Is anyone voting Liberal or Labour ?

'haven't European citizens always been able to live/work/retire in other European countries, provided they fulfil that country's conditions of entry/residence' - yes, that is, immigrants who are able to work/contribute to the country in which they wish to live. I have been through that process myself several times and while I did, at the time, find the application process laborious/intrusive, including health check-up, provide financial information, work history/qualifications/job offer etc, it was my choice to make that application and abide by that country's rules. Why is that seen as bad? I am genuinely puzzled about this.

What is Boris's real motivation for heading up a leave campaign

I agreed with the commentary - "win or lose he will be the tory that tried"

The problem is leave massively flip flop on this issue:
-some of them want a freedom of movement deal with western europe and some commonwealth countries,
-some think Europe will somehow want to massively bend backwards to give us a free trade / no free movement (complete pipe dream)
-some think we just leave full stop.

I worry that people will forget that it's not a vote for Cameron and decide to leave on that basis

The problem is leave massively flip flop on this issue:

That's not a problem, or flip-flopping. People will vote leave (or stay) for a variety of reasons. Others may consider their reasons valid or otherwise according to their own view.

Be curious to see if form follows form here ... back in 1975, IIRC (being young of age and face) there was surprise not only at the result (many people feeling "out" was inevitable) but the scale of the result.

Also, in large referenda, people seem reluctant to back change , or maybe that's my skewed perception ?

We can still allow people to come in, including staff to support the NHS, it's just that we will have greater choice to prevent others.

We can still allow people to come in, including staff to support the NHS, it's just that we will have greater choice to prevent others.

If we don't have an NHS, there's no need to worry about staffing it.

#justsayin'

"The problem is leave massively flip flop on this issue"

I don't think they do flip flop actually (though they certainly spin). All along, the leave camp has basically been three completely separate camps - please forgive me for simplifying for the sake of making the differences between the camps clear:

• the kippers, for whom immigration is the primary issue, led by Farage

• the "sovereignty" crowd, whose argument in favour of leaving is primarily about their vision of democracy; the flexcit bunch, who openly espouse a Norway-type solution (with continued free movement) are part of this grouping. You might argue that Gove is the de facto leader of this faction.

• the personal interest group, comprising Boris (whose primary interest is "who will be the next prime minister?") and most of the business leaders associated with the leave campaign. (If a hedge fund backs brexit, you can be 99.9% certain it is sitting on a short sterling position).

Obviously all these groups have very different views on many of the major brexit issues, but this is not particularly different to the remain camp, as the differences between Cameron and Corbyn (which were given another outing today) make clear.

It's reasonable for Leave to present many possible outcomes. Confusing, I'll grant you. But the options are many and partly depend on what voters wold prefer and what our partners would accept with what compromises, etc. I don't mind Different visions of how things would pan out. It's good that Leave are showing flexibility. tbf, what they want is subtle (the ability to have all those options).

I don't like most of the visions of how Leave would pan out. But that's a different problem. I don't give credit to some of the horrid visions of how Stay would pan out, either.

Martin Lewis is right. You can't decide this on "facts".

Tory "Leave" MP has switched to "Remain" over "lies about NHS"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36485464

Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has quit the campaign to leave the EU and will vote for Remain instead, she told the BBC.
Dr Wollaston, chairman of the health select committee, said Vote Leave's claim that Brexit would free up £350m a week for the NHS "simply isn't true".
She told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that she did not feel "comfortable" being part of the campaign.

Lurking I read that too but don't get it. Was she only voting leave because of the £350 million which anyone with any sense would realise is an gross oversimplification? The remain campaign propaganda has some equally silly claims. I would have thought someone in her position would have thought through the arguments properly and the way the campaigns themselves are run are irrelevant to those arguments. I am trying to decide based on facts (which are hard to get) not on whether I like Boris or not!

From her statement it seems she was generally unhappy with the campaign, and the £350m claim was just the last straw.

People are entitled to change their minds. In Sarah Wollastan's case, I imagine that it was a toss up between finding the sovereignty arguments genuinely appealing, but finding the prospect of a Britain led (even in the short term) by professional fibbers like Boris and Nige deeply unappealing.

The remain team exaggerate and spin, but they do much less outright fibbing.

What I find utterly baffling is that all these pro-leave people who are doing it to try and get our borders closed. They are going to be woefully disappointed if we do leave. The free movement of people is not just a pre-requisite of the EU but also the EEA, which we would still be a part of. We'd have to have yet another referendum in order to pull out of the EEA and common market if immigration control was the most important thing to the nation.

What I find utterly baffling is that all these pro-leave people who are doing it to try and get our borders closed.

While conveniently forgetting that more than half of our immigration is from outside the EU anyway, and we haven't been able to stop it. Brexit would make no difference at all.

I do find it strange that her reason for swapping is because of the miss use of figures when Osborne was called out for doing the same for remain yesterday.

What I find utterly baffling is that all these pro-leave people who are doing it to try and get our borders closed. They are going to be woefully disappointed if we do leave

I overheard some (older) people chatting in the doctors surgery yesterday who think that come June 24th, all the 's can start packing their bags. Which sums up some peoples understanding. They were looking forward to seeing "A nice English doctor again".

I have read the Black vote is up for grabs. The EU seen as a "white fortress" to keep other nations out, namely those who are not white. Farage is always called racist but I thought he wanted to encourage more immigration from the rest of the world?

Thecorbyn, do you not think it sums up the understanding of the people you over heard rather than a general national understanding ?

While conveniently forgetting that more than half of our immigration is from outside the EU anyway, and we haven't been able to stop it. Brexit would make no difference at all.

It would equalise the system for immigration so that everyone would go through the same process, whatever continent they were from. I see no reason why we have to prioritise those who happen to be in the EU.

Thecorbyn, do you not think it sums up the understanding of the people you over heard rather than a general national understanding ?

Of course. I can only speak for what I heard. But if that's what some people seem to think, it's a fair bet there are others. I suspect - either way the vote goes, we can expect a lot more racial abuse incidents after 23rd June. . I don't think all the disappointed people are just going to talk about it .