To ask how Brexit would affect immigration?

[Bearbehind]

It scares me that, as a nation, we have to vote in the EU referendum as there doesn't seem to be any impartial informative advice on which to base a decision.

I think I've made my mind up based on a number of factors but, as far as I can see, the question of immigration will be make or break for many people.

I'm not sure leaving the EU will result in us being able to control immigration much better than we do now but I'm the first to admit I know very little about it.

Will it really change much?

"The people I seem to see shouting the loudest about there being no work due to immigration often seem to be the people I would never in a million years consider employing, were I in a position to do so "

Maybe employers should either pay more or be less fussy. There are lots of people with learning difficulties who could work, but don't get the opportunity. Maybe employers need a bit of pressure to give the less than CV perfect employee a chance. (Ie. the person who has been a SAHM for nine years, the person who has come out of prison, the person with learning difficulties etc.)

There are lots of people who are written off as useless because immigration gives employers too much choice of candidate. For example, a lot of people with autism would make excellent employees but never get the chance because their social skills make it impossible for them to get pass the interview stage.

More and more jobs are becoming automated. We do not need lots of unskilled labourers. We need to keep those jobs for those who are not capable of being trained to do skilled work.

but to my untrained brain, it seems significant....if immigration is a top issue...

For the life of me I can't see why though hence the raised eyebrow face.

As I said, I'm open to logical debate but this baffles me.

We already have a land border between the UK and Europe now - why does what Scotland choses to do in the future have any bearing on this vote? It 'seeming significant' doesn't cut it for me I'm afraid.

Oh and jelly, NI is part of the UK

The thing is, a high level of workforce hasn't meant that (say) a polish person is employed instead of a British one but that both are employed, usually on a zero hours contract, topped up by benefits and with poor working conditions.

I dislike xenophobia but I certainly dislike crass sweeping statements about lazy, racist Brits.

Hence my correction to 'GB,' bear (another unecessary stroppy face. Good job you don't have a limit on them )

It's simple. Someone coming from NI to GB has to show ID

Someone coming from Scotland to England wouldn't... Unless we built a bloody Great Wall.

No one has managed - yet - to convince me this isn't a 'logical' concern.

I'm quite sure it's me missing something obvious...

If we leave the eu, then the government that is in power can decide what to do about our boarders, not the eu. I see that as a good thing thing personally. But if we leave we may be told " if you want to trade with us you need 20k of our immigrants" as that is the case in other none eu countries. Who knows tho. I'm voting out tho

I'm not trying to argue with you here jelly but you specifically said the UK has no borders with Europe then changed to GB like that makes it different- NI is in the UK and if 'we' vote to leave the NI is part of 'we'

My subsequent was ironic.

Please explain why it is a 'logical' concern that you might need to show your passport at the England/ Scotland border if the UK voted out of the EU and Scotland voted to leave the UK- I'm genuinely baffled.

The point being that in a general election we as the public then vote for what we would like. Once elected they would then implement that policy. This is democracy.

Our first past the post voting system means that many of us don't get what we voted for IMO. This government rules on a mandate of 36.9% of the vote. Just sayin'.

Why aren't Brexiters campaigning for House of Lords to be a proportional representation chamber, if democracy deficit is so important? Where are the missing 51 MPs for UKIP?

The EU countries will still want to sell their goods to us. We have a population of 65 million and are one of the wealthiest countries in the EU. Switzerland is not an EU member and it has trade deals and so does Norway.

A big issue is that we would be indirectly affected by EU regulation and have no voting powers. For example if EU law said that car seats must be green then UK car seat manufactors would have to produce green car seats if they wanted to sell car seats to the french. Any visitors to France would also have to have green car seats. (I know that I am taking a really stupid example as not even EU burueacts would make such a stupid rule.)

I feel that stronger employment law is needed to combat poor working conditions and zero hour contracts. Certainly there are some jobs like exam invigulation or fruit picking which are seasonal, but should the likes of Tesco be allowed to have people on zero hour contracts?

"I was asking my mother today about voting, she voted in 1972 as did her friends, she said all the ones she has chatted with wish they had voted no all those years ago. I wonder if the majority still alive who voted yes back then still feel that way."
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All the ones I have spoken to about it do, my Mom has always said that they only voted for an open market and not all the extras that have been put upon us since, she and all the others are really looking forward to casting their out vote.

If we, like Norway or Switzerland, wanted access to the single market, even without being a member of the EU, then we, like Norway and Switzerland would have to allow free movement of workers from the EU. It's part of the deal.

Dogsmom - yes, that's the trouble. We, and the older generation should be thinking of our children and grandchildren and how this will affect them. We've benefited from being able to travel freely and work in the UK - so should they.

And no-one should underestimate how much the EU will shaft us, should we vote to leave.

EU, not UK. Too much Prosecco.

Why aren't Brexiters campaigning for House of Lords to be a proportional representation chamber, if democracy deficit is so important?

What makes you think they aren't?

Please explain why it is a 'logical' concern that you might need to show your passport at the England/ Scotland border if the UK voted out of the EU and Scotland voted to leave the UK- I'm genuinely baffled.

I think it's a logical concern that you would NOT have to show ID when crossing from Scotland to England in the scenario I describe.

As far as I'm aware, when you show your passport, various things are checked including whether you're wanted for a crime, have engaged in terrorist activities or are on probation/awaiting sentencing.

I can't understand why people would be happy with people simply walking across a border without these things being checked?

If it makes any difference, I agree 100% with your OP.

Depends how much the rest of the EU want access to 65 million people who are wealthy and can afford to buy lots of expensive EU products. As a country we need to believe in ourselves and believe that people want to sell us products as much as we want to sell them products.

The UK had the second largest economy in Europe in 2014

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

The EU would be shooting themselves in the foot not to make some kind of trade deal. Especially as we in trade defict with them. They need us as much as we need them.

sigh

For me, the problem with the leave rhetoric about immigration, is it seems to presuppose a point of view that before we entered the EEC (which became the EU via the EC) the UK had no problems with immigration at all.

Which, as anyone who remembers before 1973 will know is a load of old bollocks. There was plenty of protests about immigration then. As a cursory re-watch of "Till Death Do Us Part" would reveal.

By all means vote to leave if you have another reason. But don't expect it to solve any problems you think the UK has with immigration.

MrsSchadenfreude people worked, travelled and studied in European countries long before we joined the EU, and I'm sure will do so again after we leave.

As for the EU treating us less favourably if we leave, I'm not sure that's true. For example Germany sell more to us than we do to them, so I doubt their manufacturers would suddenly stop wanting to sell to us. It's quite possible to trade without having a "trade deal" too. I think freed from the EU our smaller businesses will do rather better. At the moment it's the large corporations who are constantly lobbying Brussels to get the laws changed to their own ends.

really it's that kind of arrogance that makes me err on the side of in.

We do not have 65 million 'wealthy' people- far from it.

As a nation were are dispensable however much we may chose to think we aren't.

Any trade deal we get has to be less favourable than we have now- why would the rest of Europe give us better terms for opting out than they do now?

jelly I'm happy to remain blissfully ignorant of your logic.

Germany sell more to us than we do to them

Yes, stuff we want, like high quality cars and electronic equipment. What do we sell to them, that they couldn't buy elsewhere?

how Brexit would affect immigration?
Actually very little!

There are two sorts of immigration - from EU and from non-EU

According to the last immigration figures that got Brexiteers so worked up, more than half of the immigrants came from outside the EU. So after Brexit they will continue - if we can't control them now, we can't control them then.

After Brexit we will have to negotiate trade deals with the EU, which they will insist have free movement conditions.

So both sorts of immigration will continue just about the same, whether you want it to or not.

I'm voting in. Lots of eu countries are having massive problems with their own far - right anti immigrant politicians - look at le pen in France for example. If we vote out and benefit from it, it will be a headlong rush to the exit, probably followed quickly by war.

I certainly don't think we'd get off anywhere near as 'lightly' as Switzerland or Norway, and actually both if them have to comply with all the eu rules but don't get to make them.

"We do not have 65 million 'wealthy' people- far from it"

Why is it arrogant to be positive about the country I live in. The UK is lucky to be a prosperous country. I don't even object to overseas aid to help countries less fortunate than ourselves. Half the EU budget is in affect overseas aid and the sad thing is that a lot of it is wasted on bureaucracy. How much of our EU contribution relieves poverty in Greece?

The average person on benefits has a better standard of living than someone in Romania. Why else do you think that all these immigrants want to come here? Compared with Poland the streets are paved with gold in the UK. Why else do you think that EU migrants are prepared to come and work for shitty employers like Sports Direct?

"Any trade deal we get has to be less favourable than we have now- why would the rest of Europe give us better terms for opting out than they do now?"

Maybe, maybe not... depends on how much having no trade deal hurts the rest of the EU. Trade isn't everything and the EU sells more to us than we sell to them. There are lots of other medium sized countries that do Ok in the world.

We are financially better off than the majority of new EU countries. Its not arrogance, its a fact. Certainly we have financial parity with orginal member states of the EU, but we have a far better standard of living than Romania or Poland.

The EU has been great for the middle classes, but less great for the poor sods who do unskilled jobs in the UK. I am on the fence because I know that a brexit would have both winners and losers.