To ask how Brexit would affect immigration?

[Bearbehind]

It scares me that, as a nation, we have to vote in the EU referendum as there doesn't seem to be any impartial informative advice on which to base a decision.

I think I've made my mind up based on a number of factors but, as far as I can see, the question of immigration will be make or break for many people.

I'm not sure leaving the EU will result in us being able to control immigration much better than we do now but I'm the first to admit I know very little about it.

Will it really change much?

I feel that stronger employment law is needed to combat poor working conditions and zero hour contracts.

I agree, but seems Thatcher and Blair's children don't.

I feel that the only way to secure this is to remain within the EU. Frankly I think that the encouragement of these working practices simply to get people off the live register has just contributed to an immigration issue.

I'd dearly love to hear what yout think the EU is going to do. Our Maternity Leave and pay and some other rights are way above what the EU demands. Sweden doesn'thave a minimum wage. The workers rights card is really a red herring as far as I can see, but please tell when the EU commision (the MEPs can't frame legislation) is going to address zero hours contracts.

The out voters hoping it's a magic wand to rewind to the 1950s are in the minority, I think (hope).

Harsh penalties for black market working, regulation of landlords do that people do not sleep 20 to a room would reduce low income EU migration. I don't think we should be in a race to the bottom in how we treat those who provide goods and services. I would rather pay a little more than have black (illegal not skin colour) market workers pick fruit.

The remain politicians pretend that immigration is all lovely and do nothing to reduce problems that the uk poor face.

I don't believe that immigration will change whatever the result is.

If we stay, nothing will change. New countries will join the EU and they'll be able to come and go freely, as will we.

If we leave, I think we'll end up having some kind of reciprocal movement for EU nationals as Switzerland and Norway do, which means that any countries joining the EU in the future will also have freedom of movement to the UK, so no difference.

For non EU immigration, the fact that we belong to the EU means nothing currently. People either meet the requirements of the Rules or they don't. I don't believe that will change if we leave. We'll still have students, tourists, workers, spouses etc.

For illegal immigration (including asylum seekers, economic migrants, overstayers etc) absolutely nothing will change whether we stay or leave. People will continue to overstay visas, use false passports or lie to get visas in the first place and asylum seekers in Europe aren't suddenly going to halt their journeys because we've left some central organisation that is likely to mean very little to them in their day to day life.

Unless we start abolishing more than our EU membership, we'll still be signatories to the 1951 Refugee Convention and the European Convention on Human Rights, so anyone who has committed a crime in the UK and can't be deported because it will be a breach of their Human Rights to return them, will still be going nowhere. All this guff about closing the borders is a load of rubbish. It's physically impossible.

It terrifies me that some people genuinely don't see how much Britain depends on immigration, or any of the wonderful things that immigrants to this nation have brought with them, and instead seem to believe that an exit vote means that all the 'forriners' are just going to disappear.

f we leave, I think we'll end up having some kind of reciprocal movement for EU nationals as Switzerland and Norway do, which means that any countries joining the EU in the future will also have freedom of movement to the UK, so no difference.

^^was immigration ever the burning political hot potato in those countries as it is now in the UK?

No. It wasnt. So why on earth would the UK accept something that it doesnt want.
It wouldnt!

and instead seem to believe that an exit vote means that all the 'forriners' are just going to disappear

Married to one of your so called forriners I find this so rude and insulting. You think you can say things like this and its OK, I find it rude.

Hairy
Was immigration ever the burning political hot potato in those countries as it is now in the UK? No. It wasn't. So why on earth would the UK accept something that it doesn't want. It wouldn't! Firstly, this is only my opinion. I don't have any inside knowledge on what the plans are for EU citizens in the event of an exit. Secondly, I think you're making some huge assumptions on what the entire UK does and doesn't want. Personally, I quite like the fact that I can nip over to Europe without huge amounts of fuss and I would assume the several million Brits who live and work in Europe also appreciate it. Thirdly, many things have been imposed on the British public that we haven't wanted, but they've happened nevertheless. Our vote is 'In or Out'. We don't get any more say than that and we don't get to lay down conditions.

Re the 'forriners' comment, I genuinely apologise if I've caused you or anyone else any offence, but I think you've massively misunderstood the point I was trying to make. When I used the word 'forriners' it was mimicking the type of people who believe that immigration is a bad thing. In no way whatsoever do I find it acceptable to refer to anyone as a 'forriner' and I'd assumed that anyone reading my comment would see the punctuation and the incorrect spelling and realise that, actually, I don't think it's ok to says things like that.

The out voters hoping it's a magic wand to rewind to the 1950s

I don't know anyone on the Leave side who wants to go back to the 1950s, or the 1970s when we first joined the Common Market, or 1992 when Major signed the Maastricht Treaty taking us into the EU.

To me, it's the Remainers who insist on looking backwards and sticking with what's already there. It's odd that they don't have faith in the ingenuity, creativity and potential of the British people to make something better after we've left the apron-strings of Nanny EU behind. We can't reform the EU, it doesn't exist for our benefit, and isn't working as was envisaged when a smaller number of more economically equal countries were involved.

I see leaving as an opportunity to move our country forward, with British initiative, entrepeneurial spirit and determination, without being held back by the undemocratic EU and its dogged persistence towards becoming a superstate.

I'm guessing Jelly has got the wrong thread unless immigration applies to cats too.

Quite right. That I posted on the wrong thread that is, not that immigration applies to cats too

Jelly are you saying that you currently have to show ID if you travel between NI and GB? Because I don't believe that is true. Individual airlines might have their own policies, but I've certainly travelled by ferry plenty of times to ROI without ever showing ID, and my DC have flown with me and not had to show ID.

ah now you see I find that very interesting. I have travelled to NI many times but always by air and have always been asked to show ID (of course)

I looked at various ferry companies terms and conditions and they all said you should carry ID

So I'm surprised to learn that it hasn't been your experience.

You have answered the question in my original post, thank you.

You need ID to fly from London to Manchester- it's nothing to do with borders- it's security.

You have to show ID on the ferries too. Sometimes you can get away without it but officially they do check.

And you definitely have to show ID to fly. I call BS on that post.

You need ID to fly from London to Manchester- it's nothing to do with borders- it's security.

Yes I get that. I just get a certain level of comfort from knowing that (despite us having lots and lots of very nasty criminals in this country), if any more want to enter, they pop up on a screen somewhere and are identified.

So perhaps the whole crux of the point I'm trying to make is about security as opposed to immigration per se.

@HairyMuff: Frank Fields doesn't say anything, though. There are no facts, just another set of opinions about perceived impacts. His opinions are a UKIP kind of argument (someone else pointed out).

I never understood why FF was so popular and treated as principled and wise. Is it because he's perceived as a working class champion?

Reallytired -zero hour contracts are a UK thing. I live in France where people are horrified by British employment law. Leaving Europe can only make things worse!

Reallytired -zero hour contracts are a UK thing. I live in France where people are horrified by British employment law. Leaving Europe can only make things worse!

Well in that case why are you telling us the EU will protect us if it's not protecting us now and won't protect the French either?

I don't think it's going to make much difference to immigration. For the following reasons.

Ukba has been run into the floor. Monitoring borders takes time money and staff, all of which have been slashed.

Secondly if we vote to leave then we need to negotiate some sort of new relationship with Europe. The most likely is one like Norway, which has comprehensive free trade... And freedom of movement.

Thirdly, the U.K. Is very easy to work in illegally. No Id cards, no real personal number system (ni numbers don't work like personal numbers where I live - here the number is your key to everything. Health care, picking up a parcel etc. It's linked to your address too.) it's a huge draw to be able to work in the black economy

What I'm saying is that zero hours contracts are not an EU law. That's all.
The French are protected by French employment law. Nothing to do with EU either.

Brexiters seem to believe that every law they dislike is imposed by Europe and this is easy to disprove when you have experienced life in different EU countries.

Re. immigration, look up the Treaty of Le Touquet. The people of Calais are eagerly anticipated a Brexit. The people of Kent should be worried!

I looked at various ferry companies terms and conditions and they all said you should carry ID

They probably expect you to carry it, but they don't check systematically - nor between the Republic of Ireland and Wales. We did Rosslare-Fishguard last summer without showing passports. Common travel area = no systematic border checks.

You need a passport for ferries from France or Belgium to England or Ireland, but not from Ireland to the UK (or at least, not systematically) - any more than you need a passport to drive between the Republic and Northern Ireland. In fact at some border crossings now you wouldn't necessarily realise you'd crossed.

I don’t know what will happen with immigration if the UK leaves the EU, but I can give some insight into the current policies for non-EU immigrants as I am an American married to a Brit. As it currently stands, non-EU migrants do not have access to any benefits. We also have to pay an NHS surcharge of £200 per year, on top of the taxes we already pay. In order to be hired for a position, there must be no other candidates from the EU who can meet the requirements of the role. Because there has been pressure on the Home Office to reduce immigration, and the only immigration they can affect is that from outside the EU, new policies have been put in place that make it even more difficult for the UK to attract highly skilled migrants. I graduated from my Masters course in 2011 and was part of the last class able to take advantage of the Post Study Work visa, a two year visa that allowed employers to hire graduates of UK universities and take advantage of the skills students gained while studying here. This visa route no longer exists.

In April, the Home Office introduced a new rule that after five years of working in the UK, non-EU workers must meet an income threshold of £35000 to stay. While nurses are exempt, other professions that don’t pay very high salaries, are in need of workers and not on the shortage occupation list, such as teaching, will unfortunately be affected.

I’m in favour of remaining (although I don’t get a vote anyway) but if your question is about immigration it’s helpful to be knowledgeable of the current regulations in place for non-EU migrants as they may serve as the foundation for any new regulations put in place in the future.

In the past there were no zero hours contracts in the uk because market forces prevented employees so badly. The fact that there are a large pool of people completing for limited work means employers can get away with low wages and poor working conditions.

When I was younger there was no minimum wage, but it was possible to live on the wage from an unskilled job.

Another issue is apprenticeships for jobs that are semi skilled. Care worker, waiters, bar staff, nursery nurses should be paid a proper wage from day one.

Brexiters seem to believe that every law they dislike is imposed by Europe and this is easy to disprove when you have experienced life in different EU countries.
But you seem to be saying that remaining in the EU is essential to protect workers rights and save them from zero hours contracts. Either the EU does look after workers rights or it doesn't. Since EU law is silent on zero hours contracts, leaving or staying would make no difference.

Re. immigration, look up the Treaty of Le Touquet. The people of Calais are eagerly anticipated a Brexit.
No, the people of Calais want us to join Schengen.

The people of Kent should be worried! Why? according to remainers we are already fully in control of our borders - moving the border back to Kent won't make any difference to that. The French will still need to keep people out of the tunnel so the trains can run, and anyone found in Kent without the right paperwork can be returned to France or detained - the situation wouldn't be substantially different - all this bollocks about "the Jungle" moving to Kent is just daft scaremongering.

As a British emigrant I am surprised at how low wages are in the UK, especially given the cost of living. My DH and I both work in stem fields and we have a good standard of living. A year or so ago I got a bit nostalgic to live back in the UK so we did some basic diligence on jobs/salaries/cost of living etc... and we were pretty shocked at how much less we would earn comparatively in the UK. I was contacted by several recruiters and verified the salary situation with them. That ended my nostalgia to be honest! Objectively it seems logical that a greater employee pool of educated Europeans with the right to live in the Uk would be a factor in pushing down salaries.

Yup, like rain bunny I'm a British expat in a stem field. I was scraping by in the uk. Same job here pays 3x as much - even with high tax and cost of living it's a no brainer, the U.K. Is a low wage, low skill economy with high cost of living

BillSykesDog - And you definitely have to show ID to fly. I call BS on that post

I said my DC don't have to show ID when we fly. Here's the link to the Aer Lingus page where they say "Citizens of Ireland and the U.K. under the age of 16 don’t need a photo ID if travelling with their parent/guardian".

AFAIK, showing ID is an airline security requirement, not an immigration one to travel between Ireland and the UK.
I take the ferry 3-4 times a year between Holyhead and Dublin, and we have NEVER been asked to show ID.