does it bother you that men use this site also?

[SomethingLike]

Sometimes very female skewed things are discussed and I can't help feeling slightly uncomfortable when I read: "Male perspective here..."

I'm sure I am BU but does anyone else feel the same? I am struggling to put into words why it bothers me but it does.

In a society where women are still paid less than men for the same job

Thought the ONS debunked the pay gap a few years ago. Their figures show that between the ages of 22 and 29 women earn 1.1% more than men of the same age, and between 30 and 39 women earn 0.2% more than men in the same age group (note PER HOUR).

ONS figures(Fig 9, page 12):
www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_385428.pdf

Even in the Guardian they have had to admit this. This pay gap reduces and then reverses around the average age of having children and taking time out of the work place.

I found Mumsnet after searching for ideas and reviews for bathroom fixtures and fittings, there was a long thread on here with lots of suggestions and do's and don'ts.

I am single and male but I still joined.

I also have mental health problems.

I am also an Uncle to a niece and nephew both under 10 years old.

I also enjoy reading and commenting on news stories and silly things.

I also find women offer the best advice.

I disagree.

you don't have to agree.

Or would it not be as bad for a woman? They love it, right?

Oh grow up. No one has said that

you're saying that if a man was set upon and had a penis forcibly stuck in him he'd be blamed as much as a woman would be?

I certainly didn't say this. I did however add the more realistic outcome to your limited choice of two answers.

I know no ones said that here. But that is often the view taken by society and the media.

Look at the Ched Evans case. She's had to change her identity twice, whilst he is looked upon by many as the victim.

It's sad but it's true. If he'd raped a man there'd be no mention of what the victim was wearing or how drunk he was, there's just be horror and sympathy.

If he'd raped a man there'd be no mention of what the victim was wearing or how drunk he was, there's just be horror and sympathy.

What about when boy george tied up and raped that guy?

There was victim blaming by the media then.
It's not a subject you can make absolute blanket statments about.

it's far far more frequent towards females though.

It is a subject where you can say 'generally this is what happens to women; it is different to what happens to men' because that is true.

Sorry - 'it is GENERALLY different to what happens to men'

I don't think your graph shows what you think it shows, Pan. It tells us about the average for the population as a whole. It tells us nothing about whether a given woman with a particular job (as defined by her job description) is paid more or less than men with exactly the same job.

I'm talking about the latter - and in the case of the organisation I work for, we have the results of an independent pay audit to suggest that there are quite a few job roles where women are systematically paid less than men.

I agree Shaknad0

to suggest that there are quite a few job roles where women are systematically paid less than men.

systematically, or reflecting the fact that some women have taken time off for maternity, leave for sick children and childcare problem, and don't accept to work overtime or weekends, or to take on more responsibilities and refuse to consider promotions?

All that I have to say I have witnessed quite a few times. Some women believing they should be paid the same whilst doing less.

Thinking about it, I would quite like to see the opinion of men here on this subject

You don't have a very high opinion of women do you, sharknado?

I have not seen women expecting to do less hours for more money.

But you raise an interesting point about women needing more time off for childcare.
Is this because women are unambitous and more bothered about being at home?
Or because society doesn't expect men to step up and parent their children equally?

Probably still the woman's fault, eh?

In fact, having reread this bit of misogynistic bullshit -

women have taken time off for maternity, leave for sick children and childcare problem, and don't accept to work overtime or weekends, or to take on more responsibilities and refuse to consider promotions?

I don't know why I'm even engaging with you.

You read back your own posts, and then tell me again that women aren't biased against. You're doing it your bloody self, you're disproving your own silly point.

Larcio

Did you read the text next to the graph?

Figure 9 shows gender pay differences by age group. The gap is relatively small up to, and including, the 30-39 age group (with the exception of the 16-17 age group). In fact, the gap is negative for the 22-29 and 30-39 age groups, meaning that women earn on average more than men. Thereafter, there is a relatively large positive gap. This is likely to be connected with the fact that many women have children and take time out of the labour market.

There is most definitely an 'earnings gap' insofar that over the course of a lifetime women earn less than men and that is largely down to a whole raft of issues such as women taking more time out of the work place, more likely to work part time, work less overtime or less likely to work in more lucrative STEM based industries. If you truly believe you are being paid less than your equally qualified male colleague who has the same amount of experience as you than that is illegal.

thecatfromjapan is so madly on point on this thread, I love what you have articulated here.

I have something to say about this:

"...on the relationship boards where some of the double standards on show are breathtaking."

I don't think they are breathtaking. In my experience, women and men behave completely differently in relationships and in the home, and it is a complete nonsense to compare an isolated incident of one piece of behaviour by a woman, to that of a man.

I don't know of any men who remotely begin to cover the level of actual work AND commitment to completion and the bigger picture AND the emotional labour that women do. We are blind to this on one level, and hotly deny it at times "Oh no my husband isn't one of those....") and yet women are subconsciously aware of it, as a rule, a general pattern. And so this informs how they respond to what they hear about men and women in relationships.

If a woman I know (or barely know) tells me that she left work so ill and tired that when she got home she couldn't do anything except get into the house and go to bed, I would probably feel sympathy for her. I would assume she was physically incapable of bathing the children, making the packed lunches, straightening the house, reading the letters from the school and filling in slips, paying a couple of bills, popping next door for the parcel that Mrs G had taken in earlier and lingering on the doorstep having a bit of a chat as she probably hasn't seen anyone else all day, etc. I would also be pretty confident that she is going to catching up on most things left undone the next day. I would assume that she was probably fast asleep with a fever, or in bed with a bucket next to her.

If a man I don't know tells me he was too tired after work to do anything, I would be much more inclined to assume he maybe had a bit of a sniffle, quite likely went to bed with a tablet and watched shit for a while.

Now of course there will be millions of men and women who can buck both trends. But on a site like this where we don't know anyone, we are of course going to go with the numbers. It'll look like double standards. But it's really assuming the backdrop against which all these behaviours take place.

Now men will say "assuming? You're just admitting the double standards, there is no basis for your assumptions."

but there is. Oh yes. there is.

Pan the gender pay gap is primarily about women being paid less than me for doing exactly the same job.

Not the info your graph shows.

You don't have a very high opinion of women do you, sharknado?

On the contrary, I am one of them , I work successfully in a so-called "man dominated environment" and I find it depressing that women still have that self-pity attitude which is unnecessary and counter-productive. I you raise your girl telling her she is a victim in this society, she will likely be one. I have never felt that me being a female was an issue for anyone. I don't have a very high opinion of people who always find excuses instead of looking at themselves in the mirror. I won't give the same bonus to someone who has been working 12 months last year (minus holidays) and someone who had 6 months off. I don't care if they have been on parental leave or on a trip round the world, it just wouldn't be fair on the others! No discrimination here.

I don't tell my daughters that they are equal to men, they are clearly not, but that they should go for the same opportunities whilst keeping their difference in mind and work with them.

Again, I don't deny cases of bullying or abuse, I am just saying they are an exception.

"Myth 3: The pay gap is a lie

In particular this video, which claims – actually quite reasonably by a "world-leading economist" – that the figures are "simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full time. It doesn't take into account differences in occupation, positions, job tenure, hours worked per week." When you do take these factors into account, the wage gap disappears.

Except it doesn't. In fact, the higher up your career you go, the worse it gets. Stats released on Monday by the TUC show that the pay gap for the highest earners is actually 55 percent. And it's nothing to do with qualifications. Plenty of studies show that female graduates in a range of industries – from science to law to medicine, are paid less than men with similar qualifications."

www.vice.com/en_uk/read/calling-bullshit-on-the-men-who-think-the-pay-gap-is-a-myth

" If you truly believe you are being paid less than your equally qualified male colleague who has the same amount of experience as you than that is illegal."

(Thump as head hits desk)

Yes, that is precisely why (see my post upthread) that my case and those of my colleagues are going through the courts right now. But it's bloody shocking (to me anyway) that 46 sodding years after the equal pay act, when your employer's own pay audit (not my "beliefs" as you so charmingly minimise the situation) reveals a problem, you still have to go to court to get it fixed.

Incidentally, I find the responses to my situation (and this is not the first time I've brought it up on a thread where someone has blithely said "there is no pay gap") very interesting. I say, "oh yes, there bloody well is in my case", and there's always a fair number of people who bend over backwards to claim that my lived experience cannot be as it actually is. Which, funnily enough, is what tends to be done to women a lot, over unequal pay, sexual harrassment, sexual assault, domestic violence... The list is endless. We cannot be believed to know what our own lives are actually like.

I work successfully in a so-called "man dominated environment" and I find it depressing that women still have that self-pity attitude which is unnecessary and counter-productive.

I don't tell my daughters that they are equal to men, they are clearly not

Fucks sake. Words fail me.

You're just lazy and playing the victim Lurcio, haven't you heard?

And don't bother thinking you're equal to a man - clearly you're not. But you could still bloody try?

Tsk.