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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

All PIV = rape??

588 replies

Flashbangandgone · 21/05/2016 21:28

Stumbled across this article...

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Seems not only to be strongly arguing that all PIV is necessarily rape, but is incredulous that a feminist could think differently! AIBU to think this is bonkers or has the virtually the whole population of women (who don't think this way) just been brainwashed?!

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 22/05/2016 10:49

It's not tutting or storming off. It's just not wasting time responding to ridiculous comments. :) I think it's a very sensible approach to some of the comments on this thread.

bumbleymummy · 22/05/2016 10:52

'Sex for procreation' isn't quite the same as 'All PIV sex is rape' now is it?

misssmithx · 22/05/2016 10:52

manspreading =/= honour killings. The fact you wont help women in the middle east leads me to believe either a) Western feminists are racist or b) Western feminists are too scared to help middle eastern women because they know they'd be raped and tortured

paxillin · 22/05/2016 10:53

Eyerolling (like tutting and storming off) belittles others' viewpoints. If you want to do that, be brave and say it.

RufusTheReindeer · 22/05/2016 10:55

Nope, but the comment originally made by mrsb was that there would be less abortions (which would surley be good) if PIV was used for procreation rather than recreaction

If you dont want to answer the question just say...

I actually think its an excellent point....but then i am watching the big question which is talking about decriminalising abortion

RufusTheReindeer · 22/05/2016 10:56

Sorry

Surely be good

corythatwas · 22/05/2016 10:58

I do wonder a little bit about the environmental argument.

I mean, I am a woman, but I use pretty well as many resources as a man does, I do not necessarily shop more morally, I like my comfort and my hygiene articles and my nice food and my holidays abroad, as do millions of women around me (including radical feminists)- is there really any reason to suggest that if we abolished the patriarchy and banished the male half to their huts we would be prepared to give up our advantages for the good of suffering women elsewhere?

Isn't the environmental question as much about social class as gender? And isn't that part of the discussion more about making me, as a planet-abusing resource-hogging Western woman, feel good about myself: because hey, it's not my fault, it's all the patriarchy. If women came to rule the planet tomorrow, would all that airconditioning be switched off? And if so, why don't those women who do have a say in how their houses are run switch it off today?

Other than that (and a certain reluctance towards having other women telling me what sex I should enjoy), feminism seems much needed.

Coldlightofday · 22/05/2016 10:58

miss - was that directed at me?

misssmithx · 22/05/2016 10:59

Besides, I have far more respect for ME feminists because at least they stand in the face of danger for their liberation despite the fact they could easily get raped, shot, tortured, burned etc

mumofawoodlouseeater · 22/05/2016 11:00

Wow, AnyFucker. Really unfair to suggest that Toxic is 'hard of thinking'.

She (?) has been absolutely jumped on in this thread for the apparently heinous crime of not being as well read as other posters and conveying her points in an arguably inelegant manner/misusing some words, and it comes across really distastefully.

VestalVirgin · 22/05/2016 11:00

miss of course honour killings etc are a huge issue - and IMO should not be 'feminist' issues. They should be issues for anyone who is human, who doesn't agree with killing other people that are human

Well, from that point of view, all feminist issues should be issues for anyone who is human and has compassion.

Things are not as they should be. That's why we need feminism.

@miss: So, what do YOU do to help women in the middle east? What do you propose Western feminists should do?

I suppose we could go and throw a big bomb on all those countries, then that'd end the oppression of women there forever ... it would also kill them, but hey, no solution is perfect. Oo
Or we could abolish air conditioning, thereby reducing the dependence on oil, thereby removing one incentive Europe has to do trade with countries that oppress women.

bumbleymummy · 22/05/2016 11:01

Papillon - Kind of like saying that you're lowering yourself to someone's level when you reply to them? Or saying that they don't 'engage their brains' or are 'hard of thinking'? That's not belittling at all, is it?

Rufus - Her point was that she was 'surprised that I'm not more supportive of the anti-PIV viewpoint'.

Coldlightofday · 22/05/2016 11:03

Vestal - indeed. Should have read 'should not ONLY be feminist....'

AnyFucker · 22/05/2016 11:03

yes, you are correct, mumof

Toxic came across really distastefully

VestalVirgin · 22/05/2016 11:03

Besides, I have far more respect for ME feminists because at least they stand in the face of danger for their liberation despite the fact they could easily get raped, shot, tortured, burned etc

You do know that Anita Sarkeesian gets rape threats on a daily basis?

You are only (relatively, never fully) safe in the US as long as you don't do feminism. As soon as you start doing any feminism that makes you visible in the media ... you will be threatened.

I am sure somewhere some woman is threatened with rape because she complains about manspreaders.

Also, may I ask whether you are a man? Because I used to know a man who was exactly the same "Wahhh, don't complain about my misogyny, women in the Middle East are killed, you have no right to complain!"
Distasteful.

misssmithx · 22/05/2016 11:04

Go over there and do charity work? Tell them women are not afraid? Maybe it's not so difficult. I mean Stacey Dooley held her own against two ME men who were harassing her and told them straight and she wasn't raped

BeyondTellsEveryoneRealFacts · 22/05/2016 11:04

On manspreading vs honor killings... Hmm

Perhaps the men in the HICs who manspread (and thus view themselves as above, and more worthy of space than females in those same countries) are less likely to use their privileged position to battle the attitudes of those who perpetuate honour killings in LMICs?

misssmithx · 22/05/2016 11:06

LOL Anita Sarkeesian. The one who never played a video game in her life, plagiarises other peoples videos and cries about criticism she receives?

I'm not a man btw

misssmithx · 22/05/2016 11:08

Oh and Anita Sarkeesian isn't in the middle east. She gets threatened by a bunch of keyboard warriors who 99% of the time wont do anything

Coldlightofday · 22/05/2016 11:14

LOL Anita Sarkeesian. The one who never played a video game in her life, plagiarises other peoples videos and cries about criticism she receives?

So it's ok to threaten her with rape? Even if it is 'keyboard warriors'.

misssmithx · 22/05/2016 11:21

Never said that Cold. Don't be twisting words now :)

mumofawoodlouseeater · 22/05/2016 11:23

AnyFucker - she didn't, though.

This is just conjecture, and perhaps I'm wrong. But my impression is that you are a person who has engaged in a lot of feminist discussion online, and are consequently someone who has encountered a lot of 'trolls' with a tendency to express certain views as bait or straw targets.

So when you see someone like Toxic say something like "... something something ruins feminism something something..." you immediately go on the defensive.

But to someone (like me) who doesn't engage in discussion all that often, but who has clicked on this thread out of curiosity, Toxic didn't come across as a troll at all. She (?) came across as someone with feminist ideals who has had a fairly standard reaction to such an extreme article: annoyance that it might undermine 'more important/valid' feminist issues in the minds of people who aren't highly educated on feminism in general. She expressed this 'undermining' as 'ruining'. Some posters took offence to this and, I think, were quite rude and condescending as a result.

I, too, could easily have confused 'radical' feminism with 'extreme' feminism. It really isn't that difficult to just politely say 'actually, you're using the wrong terminology there'.

misssmithx · 22/05/2016 11:28

mumofawoodlouseeater it's feminists that go on the offensive to other MNers that also put others off feminism

mumofawoodlouseeater · 22/05/2016 11:31

misssmith - Can't tell if you're suggesting that I'm going on the offensive or not, but either way, I agree with your main point!

MardleBum · 22/05/2016 11:31

This was discussed on here a few years ago. It is of course a ludicrous POV and thankfully one held by a loony minority faction of Feminists who should be laughed out of town.

They are no more representative of most Feminists than Abu Hamza is of most British Muslims.