All PIV = rape??

[Flashbangandgone]

Stumbled across this article...

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Seems not only to be strongly arguing that all PIV is necessarily rape, but is incredulous that a feminist could think differently! AIBU to think this is bonkers or has the virtually the whole population of women (who don't think this way) just been brainwashed?!

Well put lumpy

Good analogy paxilin

YY, Lumpy.

Out of all the things to be utterly faux outraged about, such that you'd be moved to start a thread, someone blogging that 'all PIV is rape' is really top of your list?

"I always find posters who say they love cock very telling"

Sometimes, for the hard of thinking, you have to get it down to their level . But yes, penis centric comments just promote the stereotypes. Unfortunately, stereotypes seem to be all that some people manage to exercise their brains with.

'Hard of thinking' , 'their level'

The way i view it is, there is a difference between class analysis and theoreticial discussion, and saying "all of you men are rapists and all of you women are being raped every time you have PIV sex". And thats all there is to it.

Do i think my dh is an actual rapist? No.
Do i think the risks and benefits of PIV sex are equal to both sexes? No. And it is this imbalance that leads to the theorisation of PIV sex being rape.

Perhaps look at it this way? When i chose to become pregnant, was i (were you?) made aware of the risks of complications that now affect me? No. I knew of risks to babies and the minute chance of dying in childbirth, i did not know i would prolapse and cause incontinence, i did not know that my disability would manifest after childbirth (this is common in my condition). So there was an aspect of informed consent that was missing, an aspect that cannot apply to DH and thus leads to an imbalance.

And in any other area, uninformed consent is not consent.

Though perhaps aibu is not the place to try to explain

Yes, bumbley. You read it right, you don't have to type it twice.

All this stuff about views like this putting young women off feminism...

I think if a young woman, or any woman, or any person, comes across a view they may not agree with, which puts them off an entire movement full of all manner of challenging and varying views, then they may be lacking in critical thinking skills. There is nothing wrong with having your own views challenged. You then either change your views or know you are right regardless. It's the same sort of attitude that's leading to all these ridiculous university no-platforming issues. Young minds should be challenged, just not with some out-of-context soundbites.

I came across the PIV as rape stuff a while back while reading around more radical feminism. I didn't get it at first either. Then I read some more and understood where they were coming from. I'm still not sure I agree, but that could be because of my socialisation or because I just enjoy some penis every now and again. But it hasn't put me off feminism or PIV.

I also think that there are some (many?) women out there who have been damaged by men to this extent, and they deserve our support - not our condemnation.

Exactly Aunt Youtube user shoe0nhead makes some great points about that

Most of us will have a raped woman or two in our ancestry as well, of course (a great great who believed in his conjugal rights). Marital rape was only made illegal in 1991, after all.

One or two? Hundreds more like it, if we go back far enough. It's depressing.

To those who say "Radical feminism puts young women off feminism" - you realise that this is ridiculous, right?
At the moment, radical feminism is the only movement left that is actually feminist. (I.e. if you have an actually feminist viewpoint, you will be called radical. You don't even have to self-define as such.)
So, in essence what you are saying is: "Feminism puts young women off feminism" ... yeah, well, if they don't like feminism, it cannot be helped.

Feminism is a political movement, not an ice cream brand. It is not its purpose to change and change until most people like it - its purpose is to liberate women.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I wonder if the suffragettes were also told that demonstrating even though the police had forbidden it put young women off feminism and they should stick to writing sad letters to the government, or whatever was considered acceptable for women to do at the time.

The suffragettes are turning in their graves knowing that modern western feminists are whining about 'manspreading' and 'air conditioning is sexist'

The suffragettes are turning in their graves knowing that modern western feminists are whining about 'manspreading' and 'air conditioning is sexist'

Yeah, they'd probably expect we have abolished patriarchy by now, having the vote and all.

I'm intrigued ... why is air conditioning sexist? Other than because it wastes a lot of resources, among them the oil that is the reason why the US has made a mess of the whole political situation in the Middle East and caused misogynist groups to gain power ... okay, I think I got it.

try this vestal

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11760417/Air-conditioning-in-your-office-is-sexist.-True-story.html

On the contrary, misssmithx, the suffragettes would see that feminists are still fighting for equal rights for women. At the core of feminism are sexual rights, employment issues, questions of bodily autonomy and many more. Manspreading and mansplaining are symptoms of contempt. Calling men out on these is not "whining". Why do you infantilise women's voices like that? I have no idea about aircon, but rest assured equal pay is higher on the agenda.

Things like manspreading are hardly an issue. When women in the middle east are undergoing honour-killings, brideburnings, more rapes etc the list goes on. I'm sure we all see what the bigger issue is

Bumbleymummy, I'm surprised you don't feel more supportive towards the anti-PIV viewpoint, given your own views on abortion. Surely the less PIV sex there is, the fewer abortions there would be?

"I.e. if you have an actually feminist viewpoint, you will be called radical. You don't even have to self-define as such.)"

Thanks for articulating this.

I really wish we had an eye roll emoticon...

Good point, MrsB. If there was no PIV,other than couples TTC, there would be very few abortions.

Ah, so AC is about the working environment being primarily set up for men.

As my gran had to leave her job on marriage and protection of pregnant individuals at work is an ongoing issue, then the AC point is part of a continuum.

The AC point is nothing more than whining

And the she must have had some terrible experiences to dare to disagree is bloody close to what used to be heard as an explanation for lesbianism.

Perhaps unwisely, I feel a need to answer this since it was my comment. It didn't come from "any woman failing to uncritically adore the penis must have had a bad experience". I believe I was replying at a time when Witchwind's actual theory was being discussed, rather than the knee-jerk headline reactions, and it had been noted that she tended to stress the dangers of PIV while missing out some of the adjustments hetero couples make to reduce the danger. I did not miss the validity of her overall argument, nor her reasons for highlighting dangers.

Back when I read this particular article, I did notice a tendency to speak of PIV with fear. I wondered why she described PIV as - not sometimes, but always - "forcing her to be entirely naked, banging himself against her with the whole weight of his body and hips, shaking her like he would stuff a corpse". To me, that reads like a description of forceful or violent PIV, not all PIV. She's not a hyperbolic writer as a rule, so I naturally wondered whether this had been her entire experience of it. If it were, then it was bad experience.

I haven't invalidated Witchwind's argument and have tried to support it as far as one can on AIBU.

I really wish we had an eye roll emoticon... yes, that way I'd know when not to respond, because no sensible argument is forthcoming. I don't respond to eyerolling, tutting and stalking off in rl, this would mark out posters not worth arguing with nicely .

Things like manspreading are hardly an issue. When women in the middle east are undergoing honour-killings, brideburnings, more rapes etc the list goes on. I'm sure we all see what the bigger issue is

So what? Women in the middle east are not complaining about manspreading ... unless they do, because manspreading men TOUCH THEM WITHOUT CONSENT and I have been told that this is sort of a bigger issue to Muslim women.

Anyway, what you miss is that we are not in the middle east. Children are starving in Africa, is that a reason to not worry about malnutrition in European children?

Women in the middle east can do feminism as they see fit. Unless you suggest sending an army there, I don't see what this has to do with the way European and American women should do feminism.

Shutting up and not complaining about manspreaders won't help women in the middle east.

Of course, complaining about manspreading is not that productive ... what is really productive is critical thinking that gets at the roots of the problems. Such as explaining why PIV can not be assumed to be fully consensual in the world we live in.
But if you do the latter, then you "put young women off feminism".

The remaining options are: Either you aren't a feminist, or you put others off feminism.

miss of course honour killings etc are a huge issue - and IMO should not be 'feminist' issues. They should be issues for anyone who is human, who doesn't agree with killing other people that are human. However, that doesn't mean that mansplaining and other more subtle 'everyday sexism' situations shouldn't be called out - it is that stuff which allows the patriarchy to continue, largely unchallenged in 'progressive' western nations.

Also, did no one else laugh at this?

Penis in Vagina Pregnant

given the topic of the OP? No? Just me then....

Very good point mrsb

Why the eyeroll bumbly

I am sure people used to say that sex should be for procreation only