Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

All PIV = rape??

588 replies

Flashbangandgone · 21/05/2016 21:28

Stumbled across this article...

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Seems not only to be strongly arguing that all PIV is necessarily rape, but is incredulous that a feminist could think differently! AIBU to think this is bonkers or has the virtually the whole population of women (who don't think this way) just been brainwashed?!

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 25/05/2016 21:59

I disagree that she is being goady. There are far goadier people on this thread IMO. If you disagree with someone, fine. You don't have to stoop to personal insults.

Flashbangandgone · 25/05/2016 22:07

I've engaged in robust discussion... I don't believe I've been personally insulting to anyone. If I have i apologise.

OP posts:
AHellOfABird · 25/05/2016 22:10

Flash, you likened me upthread to a supporter of Isis and declined to apologise after my polite request. I think that's a heck of a lot worse than a hard of thinking comment and I applaud lurcio's post of 2154

Flashbangandgone · 25/05/2016 22:12

Lurcio

You've not battered me into submission so you've resorted to insults... Says everything!

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 25/05/2016 22:14

The feminazi thing is a bit insulting.

Oh, and the whole "any true feminist would stand up and openly stone the witch". That was a bit insulting too.

The absolute assertion that people can't discuss controversial issues without agreeing with them? Yep. That's insulting.

The insistence that feminism should take a Mcarthyite stand towards its extremists? I find that insulting, as someone who enjoys discussing difficult and complicated issues in a nuanced way.

DioneTheDiabolist · 25/05/2016 22:27

There have been lots of insults on this thread. "Thick", "Feminazi", "Shit understanders".

On the bright side, maybe it will save us all from the annual disingenuous Why don't more MNetters identify as feminists / post in FWR thread.Grin

Flashbangandgone · 25/05/2016 22:39

"Femi-nazi". I never called anyone on here that term - no one on MN is close to that. However, Witchwind's views on Utopia were tantamount to genocide (or rather gender-cide) so I believe the term is apt.

"any true feminist would stand up and openly stone the witch". That one wasn't me!...

As for discussing controversial issues... No problem with that. I thrive on it as this thread shows!

McCartyite?... I have a view that witchwind's views undermine feminism and that feminists should distance themselves from her brand of feminism... Many on here disagreed... There's been a robust discussion - that's healthy in my opinion but If that's caused offence then I apologise.

OP posts:
Flashbangandgone · 25/05/2016 23:26

AHellOfABird

But I didn't liken you to Isis... If I recall I said that a feminist not distancing themselves from an extremist like witchwind was analogous to a Muslim not distancing themselves from extremists like Isis....

I was criticised for this analogy on the basis that Isis carried through on their extremist rhetoric in the most barbaric way, whereas witchwind's rhetoric only represented her beliefs. I accepted this criticism as valid.

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 25/05/2016 23:47

However, Witchwind's views on Utopia were tantamount to genocide (or rather gender-cide) so I believe the term is apt.

Since I now read that post ... actually, she proposed euthanising the child-molesters and rapists and killers, etc.

That's not more extreme than death sentence in general. In fact, many conservatives demand death for child molesters in the comment section of any given news site pretty frequently.
It is hardly extraordinary to be in favour of death sentence for a specific subset of criminals.
Interestingly, no one accuses those conservatives who'd rather have the death sentence back of gendercide, even though almost all child molesters are male.

The only thing witchwind did differently from those people was a) proposing a quick and painless death as opposed to describing torture methods in detail (sometimes, people who hate child molesters are more creepy than child molesters themselves), and b) specifically pointing out that those criminals belong to the male sex.

I find your highly emotional reaction to a completely fictional description that was devoid of any personal feelings of anger (no torture fantasies) rather interesting.

Especially since you originally started this thread because of the even less "extremist" "PIV=Rape" post.

I just cannot find it in me to get very upset about or angry at that blogger. She just wants to live in peace. Her ideas on how to achieve that may be extreme, but we know that she'll never put them into action, anyway, so ... meh.

Flashbangandgone · 25/05/2016 23:51

Why don't more MNetters identify as feminists

I think this thread demonstrates this very well... It seems many feminists, whilst not agreeing with the extreme radfems, see them as a legitimate strand of their movement. For many, association with a movement that embraces its hyper-extreme radical wing is a step too far, and leads to many who, whilst espouse its core principles, do not wish to associate with the movement and its name... This is a shame and hinders the work to promote issues that impact onto women.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 25/05/2016 23:59

The feminazi thing is a bit insulting

So was the "shit understanderers" from you Bertrand

Flashbangandgone · 26/05/2016 00:01

Vestal

Witchwind's utopia would have enslaved men and required them to live in isolation, and provided with the means of life that would lead to an early death (40).

This is consistent with the 1948 UN convention in which genocide was described (amongst other things) as "The deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;"

Yes, I admit her utopia it's only 'fantasy' on witchwind's part, and she has every right to have her opinions, as I do to dislike them.

OP posts:
Flashbangandgone · 26/05/2016 00:14

www.democraticunderground.com/10024327339

If attacks on men aren't bad enough, she's attacking most women here!.... Denying women their sexuality - how feminist!

OP posts:
Lilacpink40 · 26/05/2016 00:22

Going back to OP is this a good time to say "no it's just lots of fun and as a single person sadly I'm missing at moment?"
(Then I'm dropping to floor and scurrying away from the battle...)

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 06:53

"The feminazi thing is a bit insulting

So was the "shit understanderers" from you Bertrand"

Yes it was, and I apologize. I was just so fed up with being told that if I want to discuss something it must mean that deep down I agree with it.

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 06:57

Flashbangandgone- does the fact that you are quoting more Witchwind blogs mean that you can't find anyone else on line expressing the same views? Does that tell you something?

Flashbangandgone · 26/05/2016 07:32

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of people, including most of those I've disagreed with on here, would agree that it's insulting to state that a woman's heterosexuality is bogus. Yes, it raises an interesting discussion point perhaps, but I'd argue it's hardly supportive of women's rights to deny their sexuality!

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 08:18

Why do you keep focussing on this one blogger?

RufusTheReindeer · 26/05/2016 08:43

Fucks sake

No one told me there was homework!!!!

More stuff to read

You should have said that this was a lets all disagree with witchwind thread

Bit annoying that you started with PIV and then want us to do homework!!

AHellOfABird · 26/05/2016 08:47

Yy Rufus

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/05/2016 08:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 09:10

It's a good idea to be a bit suspicious of arguments only supported by one source too.......

LurcioAgain · 26/05/2016 09:27

I insulted you not because I'd "lost the argument" but out of frustration with your failure to engage with any of the points other people were making in the argument. To paraphrase so far:

OP: Look at this bonkers example of feminism gorn mad.
poster 1: Yup, it's mad
poster 2: Yup, it's mad, but it's within a tradition of examining why society centres PIV
OP: What, you're not going to agree it's mad?
poster 2: I said it was mad, but it does raise the interesting question of why, given that a lot of women don't orgasm from PIV and PIV has health risks (pregnancy, STDs), it is so central to our concept of sexuality.
Other posters: Yes, that's interesting. (Most of them: I personally like PIV, but it's interesting to ask the question isn't it?)
OP: If you don't agree she's mad, you're like moderate Muslims who refuse to condemn ISIS.
Other posters: steady on. (a) we've said we don't agree with what she says, (b) it doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, (c) it's only a blog online, ISIS are really killing people.
OP: But she's got another blog post where she says she'd like to kill all men.
poster 1: But she's not going to, is she? Whereas ISIS, sex selective abortion, killing women worldwide in domestic violence - that really happens.
poster 2: And in any case she didn't say all men, she said the ones who'd committed crimes of violence - so not so different from, say, mainstream American Republicans in that opinion.
OP: If you won't agree she's mad then it's your fault women get turned off by feminism.

And repeat, over and over again, like Groundhog day.

We made it to over 500 posts before one of us cracked, but congratulations OP, you can now add another tick in your anti-feminist bingo card: "a feminist was once slightly nasty to me on line (after sustained goady fuckery which I won't mention) so now I'm going to be quite justified in claiming henceforth that feminists are all incredibly nasty to everyone all the time."

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/05/2016 09:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DioneTheDiabolist · 26/05/2016 10:55

Lurcio, the nastiness, insults and contempt on this thread started way back, not after 500 posts.

Swipe left for the next trending thread