All PIV = rape??

[Flashbangandgone]

Stumbled across this article...

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Seems not only to be strongly arguing that all PIV is necessarily rape, but is incredulous that a feminist could think differently! AIBU to think this is bonkers or has the virtually the whole population of women (who don't think this way) just been brainwashed?!

It's shocking to read and the initial reaction is - crap, rubbish etc. But, I think it is fascinating to discuss and raises all kinds of thoughts and questions - it did with me. Is this really not worth talking about? You don't have to agree or agree with all of it but it does raise some interesting points.

I also wonder if this is the piece I've seen men on another forum I use to bash feminists. They must have a little file for anything that might give them an excuse to bash women.

Is the OP still around?

There are many discussions on FWR and elsewhere which have engaged with common men's rights themes such as levels of male suicide and residency splits between mothers and fathers.

I haven't seen those discussions so apologies for that.

The article (or entire blog) seems to me to serve both ends of the argument - anti feminists hold it up as an example of the rank stupidity of feminism, more "moderate" feminists hold it up as an example of imaginative counter factual thinking whilst seeking to distance themselves from the more extreme opinions. None the less the tone is generally that the reason such silly opinions exist is because of patriarchy, no other possible explanation for the opinion seems to have been countenanced by some posters. I find that interesting, e.g. if she hates men, well that's reasonable because some men are horrible to women. Perhaps I misunderstood, but that's how it comes across.

I would of thought all thnose mumsnetters exhausted because the baby and toddler get them up in the night all the time with a husband constantly pestering them for sex they don't want (i.e. probably how things are for a majority of British couples) might find it very useful to have some points against PIV sex to debate with their other half when they say yet again - not tonight darling.

Is the OP still around?

I am but have been too busy to post... itallstillbefine is making many of the arguments I would have been.

"haven't seen those discussions so apologies for that"

Not surprised, really. You do seem to have rather ..... selective.... vision.

This
"Radical Wind blowing through female outerspace"

A phrase I will now use every time DSs challenge my olfactory nerves with their random explosions...

what I find interesting is why some palpable horseshit prompts such chin stroking because it was written by a freminist. I am unaware of anyone looking at MGOTW or the like and saying "Well, I disagree with most of this, but lets examine the reason these men feel this way."

Yes. Agreed

I don't find it interesting because it's written by a feminist. I find it interesting because it's about human interaction and sex and how men and women relate to each other and I am endlessly interested in what/how people think. I am much more interested in the discussion the blog has started than in the blog itself. As I have every other time someone has "come upon" this particular writer and tried to use her as a stick to beat feminists with!

I think the patriarchy oppresses both men and women. The blog is called Utopia. The clue is in the name here. It is difficult to imagine a world where women have equal power to men, let alone one where they have more. She is musing, not proscribing. By doing so she allows us to imagine another world, to consider the affect that men have on this one.

She is not a nazi. I don't even think she has mental health issues. I would happily call myself a feminist and support Witchwind.

with a husband constantly pestering them for sex they don't want (i.e. probably how things are for a majority of British couples)

[hmmm] yeah right......

I don't see how telling us all that our dear old granddad is a rapist furthers the cause of feminism, but I guess if you look hard enough.

What Buffy said.

I notice that lass, itsall and Flash seem to be treating this whole thread as if it were an exposition of feminism - like an advertisement or a presentation. The complaint seems to be "You are collectively failing to sell feminism as an attractive proposition, and I dislike XYZ points in your collective argument. What are you going to do about it?"

The difficulty with this is that we aren't a collective and this isn't a treatise! It's just a bunch of disparate women (mostly) talking around a famously unpopular theory. We haven't come here with a previously agreed agenda. We don't even know each other! This thread isn't a leaflet advertising Feminism. We're just exchanging views & ideas.

What am I going to do about it? Nothing.

I don't see how telling us all [something you dislike] furthers the cause of feminism - There you go. Bingo!

Nobody. Cares.

If this discussion doesn't further the cause of feminism, in your eyes or somebody else's - it doesn't matter.

The only good feminist is a Patriarchy Positive Feminist.

Indeed. No use in trying to be a "good" feminist, therefore. Not if you want to be a real feminist. (By defnition NOT patriarchy positive)

Oh FFS Garlic.

It's not that i dislike it, it's because it's untrue and stupid. The fact you don't care that it's any of these things is telling indeed.

Perhaps you can explain why all the people who agree with this should care that YOU happen to find it such a fascinating polemic ?

"Perhaps you can explain why all the people who agree with this should care that YOU happen to find it such a fascinating polemic ?"

I am increasingly baffled. You are not obliged to join in the discussion. Some of us find it interesting. You don't. That's absolutely fine- go and find another thread to join. But why do you think those of us who do should stop talking about it?

Perhaps you can explain why all the people who agree with this should care that YOU happen to find it such a fascinating polemic ?

I don't even understand the question. I'm having a conversation. Imagine we do know each other in RL, and are debating this in the pub. You're sitting there going "It's untrue and stupid, why are you even talking about it? Just say it's stupid and stop talking about it!"

The most caring response you'd deserve would be a suggestion that you talk to them over --> there instead.

You can try and tell people not to say things you disagree with. But that would make you about 6 years old.

Bert - I might go and join a pushchair thread, just to tell them all it doesn't matter what pushchair they buy and they should all care that I'm not interested in their stupid discussion. That'll go down well, I'm sure

You're trying to move the goal posts as per usual. The thread is about whether the OP is being unreasonable to think that the blog post is bonkers. You're response to that is that it is not bonkers and anyone who thinks it is can shove off while you pontificate about the "big picture".

your response should say above of course....

"You're response to that is that it is not bonkers and anyone who thinks it is can shove off while you pontificate about the "big picture"."

No it isn't. Lots of people think it's just bonkers and have said so. More than haven't, actually.

Your response seems to be "Agree it's bonkers or shut up"