All PIV = rape??

[Flashbangandgone]

Stumbled across this article...

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Seems not only to be strongly arguing that all PIV is necessarily rape, but is incredulous that a feminist could think differently! AIBU to think this is bonkers or has the virtually the whole population of women (who don't think this way) just been brainwashed?!

Still the wagons remained circled by self-confessed feminists on here determined to embrace her radfem extremism as part of the feminist cause."

You really haven't read the thread at all, have you?

Flashbang, I know I'm repeating what others have said upthread, but there is a big difference between defending someone's views and defending their right to express those views. As I get older and I see more and more the damage done to open discussion and democracy by no-platforming policies, the more I think the Americans have got it absolutely right with the 1st ammendment.

Just to summarise for you (wonder if I can do it in words of one syllable, seeing as how you're a bit hard of thinking). I do not think Witchwind is right. I think she is wrong. I think she should be allowed (dammit, 2 syllables) to say what she says. I think it is okay (2 syllables again, this is bloody hard) to use her wrong views as a starting point for talking about why she might have come to hold the views she holds.

Oh, and I stand by my earlier comment - no one ever demands of the dominant voices in society (white, straight males) that they utterly repudiate the views of extremists within their ranks (EDL, etc) before they're allowed to talk - why is this standard applied to minority voices (feminists, Moslems, ethnic minorities)?

Without WitchWind et al, what you call legitimate feminism would be the extremist one that was constantly attacked

Perhaps, but at least I could defend the feminism that was being attacked... And no I'm not talking about 'patriarchal dumbed down' feminism, but the type that most of the posters on here, including those who disagree with me on this, would subscribe to.

Flashbangandgone - in an ideal world for you, what would people say in response to witchwind's blog?

Without WitchWind et al, what you call legitimate feminism would be the extremist one that was constantly attacked, be the women everyone said were mad.

This.

Go and google what men had to say against women's right to vote. They deemed it an "extremist" idea and made a lot of drama.

If nothing else, witchwind does all of us a favour by being the evil extremist feminist that, by comparison, makes our reasonable demands look as reasonable as they are.

Whereas if reasonable feminist demands are only ever compared to the status quo where we live, and the worse status quo in some other countries, then we will inevitably be told: "Ah, but the status quo here is the perfect compromise between those countries and what you want! Be content!"

I'm just saying in think her views are detrimental to feminism. Still the wagons remained circled by self-confessed feminists on here

So...only detrimental to some bits of feminism or feminists then. Are you still a feminist after reading it?

Bertrand

Wtf? For expressing my view that witchwind's views should not be seen as part of feminism, you and others have determinedly disagreed with me at every turn.... Determined not to agree with me, using every excuse and line of argument open to them. And you're surprised when I remark that this could be interpreted you defending witchwind's place within the feminist camp.

Um, we disagree with you because we disagree with you, not because we are determined not to agree with you.

Upthread, you said you'd found some of the broader discussion interesting, what changed?

Still the wagons remain circled by self confessed feminists on here, detetmined to embrace her radfem extremism as part of the feminist cause.

That's not true OP. Plenty of "self confessed" feminists on this thread have said that they find Witchwind's views ridiculous. I'm one of them.

So this is a Witchwind witch hunt, then?

Why?

No one gets to police who can be a feminist.

Of course, there is no law about it! However, if (hypothetically obviously) I said I was a feminist who promoted FGM as good practice because it reduced women's desire for sex with men, thus making them more reliant on each other, i would hope you'd say that feminism was utterly incomparable with my repugnant views!

Flashbangandgone - in an ideal world for you, what would people say in response to witchwind's blog?

I think she actually responds to the blog in the way I would deem reasonable if we lived in an ideal world.

Like, in an ideal world, men would NOT be disproportionately criminal and violent towards women and children. Therefore, the suggestion to not let them have any authority over, or even live near women and children would be nonsensical.

In an ideal world, the idea that a woman would have anywhere close to the power to do anything to men would not be so far-fetched and unlikely.

Therefore, being so shocked and outraged would actually make sense in an ideal world.

However, we do not live in an ideal world, we live in a world where men do much worse to women day after day after day than witchwind proposed doing to men, so I really don't get why one would make so much drama about one obscure blogger.

That's not true OP. Plenty of "self confessed" feminists on this thread have said that they find Witchwind's views ridiculous. I'm one of them

That's great... There's no disagreement.... but some are definitely not holding that view. They are entitled to that, I just think that witchwind's feminism is damaging to feminist cause and don't get why a number on here are so reluctant to admit that.

Some feminists don't believe that Witchwind is damaging to feminism as the comments on her blog and the posts on this thread show. And that's life OP. Not everyone will agree with you. Or me. Or Witchwind.

Lurcio "Just to summarise for you (wonder if I can do it in words of one syllable, seeing as how you're a bit hard of thinking)"

This is just bloody rude and completely unnecessary.

Buffy.

Flash has been pretty rude to others, bumbley

Not like that.

No, I stand by every word of that post, Bumbley. People have been incredibly patient with Flash who has been rude, and sounded like a bloody stuck record, and I for one am fed up.

We have patiently explained that no, we don't agree with Witchwind, yes, we do think she should be allowed to say what she says (free speech n'all), everything Witch says in (what may be a parody) her blog has actually been done by men in some oppressive regimes, and yet Flash's opprobrium appears to be reserved for "feminazis", that not withstanding the fact that we disagree with her position, it is interesting to take some of the implications of it and try to have an intelligent discussion about them. Through this process, Flash has continually insisted that all feminists bear collective responsibility for the words of one unless we suitably rend our garments and say "not me guv" (presumably while turning three times widdershins or some other crap). Personally I think she is being a goady fucker who refuses to engage with arguments and instead belittles the other people on the thread. I've had enough. She's not worth bloody arguing with, and yes, either she is stupid, or she's a disingenuous goady fucker. I don't much care which, she's not worth the pixels.