Termtime holidays, father wins High Court case

[namechangeparents]

Quite surprised about the outcome actually but haven't read the legislation to see exactly what it says. Just hope lots of local authorities don't have to pay back fines now, because there will be even more cuts to services.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36277940

Looks like an Education Act might be added to the Queen's Speech next week to resolve the issue rather than relying on the Court of Appeal maybe?

If we're under performing because they were ill or pregnant no you'd work with them so that eats into my time etc.
I do understand what you're say we are t comparing apples with apples here. Equally what I'm saying is there has to be measures because frankly there were shit teachers in the job for a long time before it became a degree qualified position and we as 70's babies suffered as a result

If we're under performing because they were ill or pregnant no you'd work with them so that eats into my time etc.

I said not if they were pregnant or ill! In what way wasnt that clear from my post?

My teachers in the 1970s were amazing and were part of the reason I went on to get a PhD. Also my parents were extremely keen on a good education and I had to be half-dead before I could take a day off school, never mind a term-time holiday!

Pissed I am a product of 70s and 80s education and had a brilliant one at a secondary modern ... The education I had makes me a good teacher. As with every job there are good and bad. I agree with prp by the way BUT in teaching it is measured on the outcome of an erratic variable where the people who set the targets (government) are the ones that impose the rules so that we can't rectify the problems.
In your world someone who has constantly under achieved, broken the rules, hit a fellow member of their team and been given help and support every step of the way is fired because they are costing the company too much time and money. In my world that person stays and continues to flaunt the rules as it costs money to 'sack' them ... And I am held accountable.

Well good for you, we had a Spanish teacher/head of year who used to cry in every lesson. Maths teacher who was head of year too and constantly off dealing with naughty boys, drama teacher who smoked in lessons, just the ones I remember vividly. Oh and the art teacher who picked the people he thought were worth teaching and the rest of his he didn't even set work for, just left us to "chat". Happy days lol

Agree dementedma. I would never ask permission for going on holiday a few days early or coming back a few days late. I usually cite travel delays and a super tired child who can't come to school. I've never yet been questioned or had it greeted with suspicion. I think the prefer it that way because I actually believe our school want to work with parents rather than be on top of them.

Why didn't you challenge the poor teaching, pisss?

Lol
I was a kid Rhonda I didn't give a shit at the time

I should probably whisper it, but I'm not against the fines. The reason is nothing to do with educational attainment or thinking that education is limited to the classroom, but rather to do with the waste of public money. On average a school is given around £4500 a year to educate a child. They are obliged to provide 190 days education, working out at around £23 per day. Whilst I would in theory have no problem taking my kids out of school for an 'avoidable reason', I would also expect to pay (or at least make a contribution) for the resource I was wasting. I believe in 2015 4.1 million school days were lost to term time holidays - that's approaching £100 million. It's staggering.

Pisssssedofff
"I do understand what you're say we are t comparing apples with apples here."

Yes I agree.

"Equally what I'm saying is there has to be measures because frankly there were shit teachers in the job for a long time before it became a degree qualified position and we as 70's babies suffered as a result"

Yes it should be measured but maybe an industry standard for a non industry standard job is not the way to go.

A lot of the teachers I had in the 80s had degrees, it didn't stop them from being shit at the job.

Well good for you so pissed you can say you had crap teachers but it's a sarcastic 'well good for you' that some had good ones.
Sums it up

The basic rules that HTs can authorise absence during term time in exceptional circumstances has not changed.

But the practice of it has. The discretion is not being used to the same extent as it was. This is why the goalposts have changed in the past few years. But even if the current state of affairs were more lenient than it had ever been, which obviously it isn't, it would still be fucking stupid to claim that people have a choice about using state education if they don't like the rules. You would have to live on a different planet to think everyone in the country has the resources to provide home or private education to their children.

The ruling appears to cast doubt on the legality of head teachers having the authority to decide which children can go on holiday or not. The parent in this case was prosecuted for failing to send his child to school regularly, what "regular" is appears to be up to the courts to decide. Not head teachers, EWOs or LEAs.

Two points, Overrun: first, the schools don't get the fine money, the LA gets it. Even though the schools do all the work and the Head is expected to turn up in court. Secondly, many schools get nowhere near £4500 per child. Dorset for example gets about £3000 I believe. It varies throughout the country.

BonerSibary

"it would still be fucking stupid to claim that people have a choice about using state education if they don't like the rules."

I have not posted that people have a choice about using state education if they don't like the rules. using the term "fucking stupid" is harsh and doesn't back up your opinion.

But the practice of it has. The discretion is not being used to the same extent as it was

Yes, the practice has changed, no longer can parents claim that their child's fifth, sixth or seventh grandparent has died and they need to go to the funeral.

The rules got tightened (far too much).

I feel it's a shame that because of this court case the whole debate has centred on holidays. There are dozens of very valid reasons children may need time out if school in term time and anecdotally I know of cases where requests have been very unreasonably denied by heads. Like the child whose sibling needed lifesaving cancer treatment at a hospital some distance away and the single parent had to take the other child with her just for one week. The child was 5 and the head did not consider that exceptional enough and the parent was fined. If this ruling puts a stop to this kind of absurdity that's got to be a good thing.

Like the child whose sibling needed lifesaving cancer treatment at a hospital some distance away and the single parent had to take the other child with her just for one week.
That is ridiculous! Unless there is more to it?
We do regularly authorise time off, usually for sporting events rather than holiday, visits to family across the world (with a limit on time authorised) and funerals (again with a limit. We look at travelling time and factor in how much time they need including travel time).

That was from a teacher acquaintance of mine, pretty sure there was no more to it. Head apparently felt the (non existent) husband could stay at home and bring younger sibling to school as usual Another one I've just remembered, again a reliable source, child was denied permission to go to London for the day on the basis he could go to London anytime. Except, his dad was getting his MBE that particular day.

Surely the parent would just tell the HT that she was mistaken and there was no other parent to bring the other child to school? I can't imagine anyone saying, well, it hasn't been authorised because the HT thinks I've got a husband so that's that?Sounds very odd.

And if there wasn't a dad around, she would probably be successful in challenging it!

Clueless I think these are often urban myths ... I have heard stories which are unfounded. The worst rule I think is that merchant navy is not subjected to the same rules as navy - despite the times off being restricted in similar ways.
As for the sibling of the child with cancer this would only happen after a certain amount of time (a few months) and would be kicked off by Education Welfare not the school.

I feel it's a shame that because of this court case the whole debate has centred on holidays. There are dozens of very valid reasons children may need time out if school in term time

I think there's a lot in that, though let's not forget that (while on the face of it the cases you mentioned are appalling) there's always been a history of exceptions being made for genuine cases

Unfortunately the problems largely arose because so very many took advantage; even now, countless parents insist that their request is "exceptional" when it clearly isn't, but it's very rare to hear anyone say "okay, I'd pushed it a bit too far, maybe I'd better just suck it up". It's never them who's thoroughly abused the system and spoiled it for others, you see - always somebody else

At DD's school if a child is sick you gave to bring in a doctors note or a copy of their prescription. Most times this is ok but sometimes it's annoying when your kid is too ill to go to school but you know the only thing doctor will prescribe is paracetamol which you already have plenty of already - so you spend an hour in the telephone queue to get an appointment for that day and if you're really lucky you might actually get appointment, and then you have to get a sick kid up, dressed and out of the house to sit in a doctor's waiting room where everyone is coughing and sneezing just so you can get a note for the school.

Redtoothbrush I am referring to those students whose attendance is around 90% who have frequent one-off days off for simply sneezing/being tired because they'd stayed up late on X Box/ feeling stressed /falling out with a friend/being hungover (yes, honestly).

Did you REALLY just say that? Would you like me to teach you about stress and mental health

Yes, I did say that. Sadly, I have plenty of experience of genuine metal health issues within both my own immediate family and among the students I teach. We're doing everything we can, as a school and LA, to combat this and support these students in the best way we can. What I was referring to in my posts are the students who say they are 'stressed' for temporary reasons which could easily be sorted in school (one example: being stressed because she had a detention the next day and didn't think she deserved it; another being the fact he'd been on X Box all night, not done hwk, and knew he'd get a detention). A small percentage of parents let their child have time off for these sorts of reasons. I have every sympathy with students with genuine mental health difficulties, including extreme anxiety, and have a track record of supporting such students - even providing revision sessions in their homes when they were too ill to come in. So no, I dont need you to teach me about mental health thank you.... but I do apologise if the way in which my post read caused offensive. That was certainly not my intention.

I have not posted that people have a choice about using state education if they don't like the rules. using the term "fucking stupid" is harsh and doesn't back up your opinion.

Nobody said YOU had boneyback. The post to which I was initially replying when I pointed out that the argument was stupid, which for some reason you took exception to, was from LunaLovegood. And she DID say that people have a choice about using state education. Which is undoubtedly a fucking stupid comment to make because clearly huge numbers of people don't. It's not harsh, it's true.

Yes, the practice has changed, no longer can parents claim that their child's fifth, sixth or seventh grandparent has died and they need to go to the funeral. The rules got tightened (far too much).

Good, so we agree about goalpost moving then. The moving of said goalposts is, of course, another reason why Luna's argument was stupid.