Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Termtime holidays, father wins High Court case

400 replies

namechangeparents · 13/05/2016 13:11

Quite surprised about the outcome actually but haven't read the legislation to see exactly what it says. Just hope lots of local authorities don't have to pay back fines now, because there will be even more cuts to services.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36277940

Looks like an Education Act might be added to the Queen's Speech next week to resolve the issue rather than relying on the Court of Appeal maybe?

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 14/05/2016 15:56

chilipepper20

"some parents are idiots. so, everyone else should suffer?"

I didn't say that everyone else should suffer.
But then teachers shouldn't have to suffer either.

SuburbanRhonda · 14/05/2016 16:05

If the law changes to allow parents to take their child out of school if the HT agrees, that will mean several dozen attendance meetings I won't have to hold every year.

So it's a yay from me Smile

apple1992 · 14/05/2016 16:35

Suburban - good point! I wonder how attendance would be 'judged'. Lots would surely fall into PA?

FixItUpChappie · 14/05/2016 16:40

If you want your child to have 100 % attendance then great for you.....why it needs to be jammed down everyone else's throat is beyond me. 93% attendance is hardly a safeguarding issue.

Teachers who have 13 weeks of holidays a year complaining about working parents wanting 2 weeks of vacation when they can partake and afford it can go boil their head IMO.....how massively out of touch Hmm

SuburbanRhonda · 14/05/2016 16:46

You sound lovely, fixitup.

Hulababy · 14/05/2016 16:47

To be fair - most teachers and teaching staff are NOT complaining.
They also don't have 13 weeks holiday - they have 13 weeks non contact time, when they can choose which days they work or not - with the option of working from home or in school (without children there.) I think they have 4 weeks paid holiday plus bank holidays.

SuburbanRhonda · 14/05/2016 16:49

If they change the goalposts, they probably wouldn't fall into PA.

The government would have to redefine what schools have to do to prove they're working to improve attendance. Currently if you can't prove it, you can fail an inspection.

jellyfrizz · 14/05/2016 16:57

They could ask prove to show what they are doing to support persistent absentees (i.e. the ones that it would actually make a difference for) rather than looking at overall absence.

apple1992 · 14/05/2016 17:03

If they change the goalposts, they probably wouldn't fall into PA.
As in, lower the threshold for PA? Or could it become more complex?

Just thinking logistically how it could work.

apple1992 · 14/05/2016 17:06

Jelly - we have to prove what we are doing to stop children going into PA, rather than just how we are trying to get those who are really low back up. The lower the % the harder realistically it is. We focus on those just above or below PA.
so with the current threshold 90%, anyone taking a holiday and falling below the 'ideal' 97 would be targeted with intervention.

Leslieknope45 · 14/05/2016 17:07

Education is NOT restricted to the classroom as it has been continually and repeatedly on this thread. I frankly find it rather arrogant and narrow-minded of teachers to think like this - even if it does affect their precious targets and Key Stage results.

They aren't 'my' targets and I would be happy to see the back of them- except that if I don't hit my targets then I won't get a payrise Smile which I would like so that I can go on holiday too.
Irregular holidays are one thing but some students are always off! I have 8 students in the ks4 class for which I have to get 90% target grade to pass my appraisal. I have 2 students who have recently had holidays over the controlled assessment period. Will their holidays be taken into account when I don't pass my appraisal? Nope.

Acorn44 · 14/05/2016 17:16

To be honest, I'm not complaining full stop about the ruling. I do sympathise with parents, especially those of younger students less likely to be affected by missing two weeks' of school. It's those parents who take exam-year students on term time holidays who I am concerned about.

DP and I are hit a different way: as a teacher, I cant have term time holidays. Dont want to out myself so can't be too specific, but his job means he cant take any leave during school holidays. As a result, the longest holiday we have had together for years is two nights!

Acorn44 · 14/05/2016 17:18

Leslieknope45 I am with you all the way. Am in the same situation. Even if it didnt affect my salary, I'd still feel guilty not offering to help a GCSE student catch up, knowing it could impact on their eventual grade.

SuburbanRhonda · 14/05/2016 17:26

Yes, I'm wondering if the actual threshold for PA will go down.

But there are other factors too. Education Welfare will probably go the same way as other LA buyback services so if every school eventually manages its own attendance in-house, I can't see how it will be possible to get a consistent picture and it will become even more complex.

Pisssssedofff · 14/05/2016 17:38

With regards to attendance I feel it's all about training the kids to be good little compliant worker bees. If my kids all go down the routes they are suggesting at the moment they will all be self employed, therefore able to take holidays as when suits them, less stressed and financially better off. Where's the schooling for that ? None whatsoever because it's the last thing the government wants

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 17:50

I have 2 students who have recently had holidays over the controlled assessment period. Will their holidays be taken into account when I don't pass my appraisal? Nope.

That is a separate issue to the child's education. Children should not be pawns to progress your career I'm afraid. Who is responsible for that? Not parents. Not kids.

pieceofpurplesky · 14/05/2016 17:50

Nikki I agree. I had one year when five separate pupils all missed two weeks each in year ten for holidays. All different weeks. The amount of extra work to complete all coursework missed was ridiculous.

BumFunHun · 14/05/2016 17:52

Can the schools not choose when holidays are annually instead? Stagger them out instead of 6 weeks in the summer. If schools weren't on blanket holidays across the country, it would make it harder for holiday companies to hike prices outside of term time, and parents that struggle to get school hols off from work may find it easier?

I do think more power needs to be given back to parents and a common sense approach to attendance be allowed, rather than the somewhat militant way it's being handled at the moment.

The very vast majority of parents want their kids to do well-if they see fit to take their kids out of school in term time, and do not think their child will suffer as a result, so be it-they are the parent, and know their child better than anybody

pieceofpurplesky · 14/05/2016 17:53

Red it is not a separate issue though. Teachers are bound by residuals and targets. These are based in pupils. Pupils that are not in school do not achieve their targets. That is what teachers are judged on.

pieceofpurplesky · 14/05/2016 17:55

Bun that would lead to more absences as not every child goes to the same school. This happened recently over Easter with three different holidays being used across the country. Imagine school holidays trying to cover childcare for 10 weeks in the summer, 4 weeks at Easter as schools had chose their own holiday dates ...

Pisssssedofff · 14/05/2016 17:58

Tbh it's about time teachers were judged on children's perform, the shit we had to put up with in the 80's/90's because pass or fail they got their wages was abismal

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 17:58

I am referring to those students whose attendance is around 90% who have frequent one-off days off for simply sneezing/being tired because they'd stayed up late on X Box/ feeling stressed /falling out with a friend/being hungover (yes, honestly).

Did you REALLY just say that?

Would you like me to teach you about stress and mental health?

BoneyBackJefferson · 14/05/2016 17:58

BumFunHun
"Can the schools not choose when holidays are annually instead? Stagger them out instead of 6 weeks in the summer. If schools weren't on blanket holidays across the country, it would make it harder for holiday companies to hike prices outside of term time, and parents that struggle to get school hols off from work may find it easier?"

I think that someone upthread has already complained that school holidays are staggered and they should have national set dates.

FixItUpChappie

Teachers who have 13 weeks of holidays a year complaining about working parents wanting 2 weeks of vacation when they can partake and afford it can go boil their head IMO.....how massively out of touch

Myths spread by idiots, not very helpful.

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 18:01

pieceofpurplesky Sat 14-May-16 17:53:02
Red it is not a separate issue though. Teachers are bound by residuals and targets. These are based in pupils. Pupils that are not in school do not achieve their targets. That is what teachers are judged on.

Er it is.

Challenge it. As in, that's YOUR responsibility to the kids too, if its doing them harm or causing stress.

KIDS should not be having that level pressure put on them. Don't make them the excuse for YOU doing that.

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 18:04

The school holiday round here are staggered for some holidays (on county borders).

I know one family where one is a teaching assistant and the two kids are in different schools.

This is something of an issue for them, and taking holiday only in holiday time is something of a challenge seeing as they don't share the same holidays...