Termtime holidays, father wins High Court case

[namechangeparents]

Quite surprised about the outcome actually but haven't read the legislation to see exactly what it says. Just hope lots of local authorities don't have to pay back fines now, because there will be even more cuts to services.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36277940

Looks like an Education Act might be added to the Queen's Speech next week to resolve the issue rather than relying on the Court of Appeal maybe?

We don't do beach holidays, but have taken our 5 year old DD out of school/nursery in the past 18 months for holidays to places like Iceland (learned about geothermal energy and earth's position's impact on daylight, plus glaciers and weather), Lanzarote (learned about volcanos, tried Spanish food, learned some Spanish phrases), Barcelona (learned about flamenco and Picasso), Paris (saw the Eiffel Tower, ate French food, went to Disney, learned some French) as well as spending quality time as a family and with other members of the family that we don't see much. School has welcomed this, seeing education as a more rounded thing than national tests and scorecards.

GCSE geography, tidal erosion?

In genearly the beach is a wonderful link for all ages to connect to the natural world.

I've not taken my year 5s out of school yet, but I would if I needed to and agree that the ban is nuts. Mine have had 100 percent attendance last few years but i dont agree that kids with good attendance should be rewarded. Its luck they've been well and its not fair on poorly or SEND kids.

However my DH has to fight for a week off in school hols as everybody in his dept want same weeks off. He was offered a week off but I couldnt get that week off! I think a flex system of say 5 days a year for hols is needed. 10 always seemed like a lot.

Greater flexibility is needed. Its not the schools' fault. It's the feckin govt still not listening to parents and still deciding whats best as a blanket rule.

Just an observation but all of these things are still educational in the school holidays and whilst it is more expensive in school holidays then maybe look at an alternative.
Great to go to Italy out of holiday time but your child would learn as much in Cornwall in holiday time ....

OK, treat "the beach" as a metaphor for most leisure holidays, although a beach covered in people soaking up the sun is not the best connection with the natural world.

It is not realistic to expect HTs to analyse what parents say their children are going to do if they go on holiday during term-time and compare it with what they would be doing at school and then factor in the disruption to other children and their education. The potential for disagreement and comparison with what happens to other parents' requests is unlimited.

I would be happy with a limited and closed list - a day or two for a family wedding, not too many times for the same child, or obviously for a funeral - but not the sort of holiday which can - at a cost no doubt - be taken at any time.

I know others differ, and somehow those who do always think that what they want to do is special!

In early May, I took my kids hiking & camping in the Grand Canyon. Too hot in summer & too cold in winter. Impossible to get a space in the easter or Xmas holidays, anyway. Plus I wasn't spending £700 air fare/kid to only go for 10 days. There were several family gatherings we attended, also. We miss nearly all the big gatherings (Xmas is only regular event in UK school hols, difficult to haul gifts back & forth) by being so far away & airfares cost so much.

Do people think it's likely that a government with a majority of 12 will try and change the law? I don't know, but it's not a fight I'd choose to pick if I didn't have to.

That's my assessment, too. They really wouldn't want another public U-turn & the idea of a lot of rich toffs with kids in private schools telling us on low-middle incomes with kids in state schools to suck up more expensive holidays is very galling, anyway.

Our HT doesn't even ask. Form asks for pupil's name, class and dates. No reason or explanation needed. DD's class teacher has always had DD do a show and tell of where she's been and what she's done afterwards. We all know what we're doing.

Just an observation but all of these things are still educational in the school holidays and whilst it is more expensive in school holidays then maybe look at an alternative.

Many of our trips have coincided with significant birthdays. Doesn't really work to surprise them with a trip months after/before the event!

It is not realistic to expect HTs to analyse what parents say their children are going to do if they go on holiday during term-time and compare it with what they would be doing at school and then factor in the disruption to other children and their education.

agreed. Of course the HTs shouldn't micromanage why each child is away. Just deal with the ones who have poor attendance.

OK, treat "the beach" as a metaphor for most leisure holidays, although a beach covered in people soaking up the sun is not the best connection with the natural world.

So learning how to get on a plane, simply navigate your way through security and passport control, eat local food, listen to local languages or other foreign languages get pissed off at how crap local tv is, look at local architecture (yep even in a resort), realise that different nationalities behave differently (yep those German towels and those Russian attitudes really are educational) and have the opportunity to learn to swim are not valuable life skills?

Great to go to Italy out of holiday time but your child would learn as much in Cornwall in holiday time

A holiday in Cornwall in holiday time can be MORE expensive than a holiday in Italy in holiday time.

I guess it depends on what you do at the beach.

In early May, I took my kids hiking & camping in the Grand Canyon. Too hot in summer & too cold in winter. Impossible to get a space in the easter or Xmas holidays, anyway. Plus I wasn't spending £700 air fare/kid to only go for 10 days. There were several family gatherings we attended, also.

why shouldn't you? It's amazing that the system doesn't recognize a lot of people have family elsewhere and it's incredibly expensive to visit family in hols.

My kids both have autism. We could go on holiday in school holiday time - technically but it would be bloody miserable for them and for the people who had to witness the resultant melt downs from over heat, over crowded, inability to wait in long queues etc. So I take them out once a year for a holiday. Not been fined yet but I don't think that will continue especially after this.

If you care about education you won't do it, and if you do it you don't care about education.

Rubbish!

Pretty narrow minded to think that all education happens in a classroom.

Agree! And self righteous bunkum to boot. There might be a lot of teaching going on but children/students absorb and learn only a fraction of it most of the time. I know that from my own lectures and students sadly

OK, treat "the beach" as a metaphor for most leisure holidays, although a beach covered in people soaking up the sun is not the best connection with the natural world.

How extraordinarily closed minded of you. I should get my teacher friend to send you a copy of some of the work her class did surrounding their trip to the beach.
The beach is an opportunity for children to learn about tides, shells and sea birds. There may be rock pools, providing an opportunity to think about geology and the creatures living in those pools. If they're very lucky/unlucky, they may see for themselves the impact of littering on that particular part of the natural world. My own offspring are preschool, and our holiday this year will consist of a few days in a caravan by a UK beach. I expect them both to learn a great deal, although that's in no way the purpose of the visit.

You also fail to understand that a holiday you think can be taken any time 'at a cost no doubt' cannot be taken any time by people who haven't the money to do it when it's most expensive. There are people who either go in term time or not at all. It's very important that you understand the implications of what you're saying here. If you think those in that scenario should be obliged to go down the Option B not at all road, fine, but come out and say that.

If you care about education you won't do it, and if you do it you don't care about education

Define 'education'.

I think everyone on this thread probably has a slightly different view and attaches different value to different things.

From an employer's POV I agree that it's often not so much about blanket bans on leave as large number of staff scrambling for similar dates. In that situation someone's always going to lose out, and as ever folk don't like being told "no"

With schools, it's very easy to say "deal with the real pisstakers" but after all nobody's going to volunteer for that label and there simply isn't enough time to spend with everyone who insists their case is uniquely deserving / exceptional / whatever

To me, sadly, the whole thing seems like yet another case where the real chancers have spoiled things for the many with common sense

what is this ridiculous comparison with employment?

Employers don't want you going off when you please for their good. they aren't hiding why. they hired you. they pay you. and they want you their because it hurts their business when you are not.

Children are different. we are told these rules are for our good. well, we disagree.

Education does not all happen in a classroom but it doesn't happen on the beach.

plenty education happens on the beach, but who actually cares?

Interesting that 90% attendance is deemed acceptable attendance. I wonder how many employers would be happy for their employees to have a sickie every other week?

I can see why parents are pleased with the hearing's outcome, but as a teacher, I can only anticipate that we'll now get even more parents demanding that we provide catch up lessons (in our own time) to compensate for the work missed whilst their child was on holiday. The obvious answer is to say no, but with so much pressure on us to get our target grades, most teachers in my school tend to grudgingly oblige. (Totally different story if the child has been genuinely ill when I am more than happy to help them catch up).

It may be different with primary school children, but in secondary schools, especially Key Stage 4, two weeks' absence can result in significant gaps of knowledge/understanding and missing coursework/controlled assessments. (In my subject, missing two weeks for a holiday would equate to being seven hours behind their peers).

BonerSibary
"It has now been pointed out several times exactly why that is such a stupid argument."

Just because you disagree with a point doesn't make it stupid. The basic premise of school and the holidays remains the same.

The obvious answer is to say no, but with so much pressure on us to get our target grades,

that's a different problem that needs addressing.

I think any employer with a workforce solely comprised of primary school aged children would just have to lump them having a sickie every other week. The immune system and childhood diseases being what they are, and all.

that's a different problem that needs addressing.
I agree chilli. But which will come first. If schools don't challenge attendance and holidays, there is extra pressure on teachers for results and schools will face criticism for attendance figures. There is so much pressure on schools to do this.