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Original poster

Termtime holidays, father wins High Court case

400 replies

namechangeparents · 13/05/2016 13:11

Quite surprised about the outcome actually but haven't read the legislation to see exactly what it says. Just hope lots of local authorities don't have to pay back fines now, because there will be even more cuts to services.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36277940

Looks like an Education Act might be added to the Queen's Speech next week to resolve the issue rather than relying on the Court of Appeal maybe?

OP posts:
SocialDisaster · 14/05/2016 09:54

Nicki I haven't taken my dc on holiday in term time. You put a smile on my face there. My dc still talk fondly of their Florida theme park holiday. A shared memory like that is great for a family.

ilovesooty · 14/05/2016 10:00

If employers start denying annual leave requests during holiday time to child free employees that wwould be unacceptable.

Imaginosity · 14/05/2016 10:00

I'm in Ireland and I'm so glad we've never had these rules. Our education system isn't falling apart without them either.

The type of parents who want their children to do well and to attend school as regularly as possible continue to do so. Occasionally, someone might take child out for a holiday or a wedding or whatever and it's none of the school's business. I haven't heard about children drastically falling behind or major disruption to other children as a result.

Obviously, it's a different issue of there is genuine truancy and lack of engagement with school - but it seems unreasonable to lump everyone in together and not make a distinction between parents who are largely supporting with their children's education and those parents or children who are not engaging.

Also, I don't think a holiday in term time needs to be educational - Disneyland is fine. We are alive one time only and we are lucky if part of our life can just be about having fun and spending time with our families.

jellyfrizz · 14/05/2016 10:00

But it is one that schools/the Government can have some kind of handle on and it is something which quite clearly impacts in a positive way on educational outcomes.

But it doesn't significantly affect educational outcomes unless absence is persistent. Which was my point.

It's basically something they can measure, which is all they care about. Data not children.

jellyfrizz · 14/05/2016 10:01

Obviously, it's a different issue of there is genuine truancy and lack of engagement with school

Yes! And fines are not going to resolve those issues.

SocialDisaster · 14/05/2016 10:05

Why are children truent? Why do parents not engage? Would you like to be spoken down to be the nasty HT on the BBC? What if you had health issues and we're getting no support to help? What if your child was female with a form of autism called PDA and you were struggling to get a dx? Who is at fault here?

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 10:13

This government wants people to be born, sent to nursery immediately so that the parents can get back to work work work, start school at 2 or 3 years old and stay until 18 at least. Get into mountains of debt and work work work. You're never quite good enough, try harder. Happiness is just out of reach, just round the corner. Just one more year. Keep working, you'll get there. Then you die.

Look at children's mental well being (and everyone else's), and it's pretty telling that something is very wrong. Suicide is the number one killer of men under 40 in the UK. Young children are getting stressed over exams. Every one is so unhappy, but that's not important. Facts and figures are important, stuff spending quality time with your family. There's work to do! No, you can't go on holiday! No, you can't see your Grandma one last time, or go to your family wedding. There's work to do, and that's what life is all about.

I really think that we have lost sight of what's really important, when people are fined for going on a lovely holiday with their family, when it's affordable, not too hot, not heaving with crowds and both parents can co ordinate time off work.

Sorry to ramble and not make sense, I am lacking in sleep and have depression.

This.

I have family abroad. I have friends abroad.
School holidays in the UK and elsewhere around the world are different.

The thinking on the policy is so narrowminded. It has no concept of how the lives of people differ.

Education is important. But so are other things to have a balanced and happy and therefore productive youth.

Andrewofgg · 14/05/2016 10:16

More power to DfE's elbow. Don't tell me that there is any educational value in going to a beach on the Costa Fortune this week rather than next because it will cost less. If you care about education you won't do it, and if you do it you don't care about education.

NickiFury · 14/05/2016 10:18

What a load of crap.

Shakey15000 · 14/05/2016 10:18

We committed the ultimate sin by taking DS to Disney California where DS missed a week and 2 days at the beginning of the new school year in September. It was unauthorised unsurprisingly.

I didn't feel bad whatsoever. As a family we'd had a truly awful couple of years.

TheFairyCaravan · 14/05/2016 10:21

Who are these employers who won't allow an adult to take any time off in school holidays? The only ones I've come across are the Armed Forces, hence children of servicemen/women being excepted to the 'no term time holiday' rule when necessary.

Not any more they're not. Military children are only allowed time off in term time if their parent has been on an operational tour now. A parent could have done 6 months in the Falklands, or Canada or wherever and the HT is quite within their rights to unauthorise the absence. When DS2 was in Yr12 the HT refused to authorise a half day off so he could see DH leave for four months.

SocialDisaster · 14/05/2016 10:23

There is a Tory bot on the other thread using NLP on posters.

SouperSal · 14/05/2016 10:24

If you care about education you won't do it, and if you do it you don't care about education.

Pretty narrow minded to think that all education happens in a classroom. Hmm

caitlinohara · 14/05/2016 10:25

I'm just wondering, are all the people on here arguing that we must toe the line so as not to upset teachers and school targets teachers themselves? It's bloody depressing if so. When I was at school teachers had some backbone.

Lemonade1 · 14/05/2016 10:25

Thumbwitches

I was dismayed and in disagreement with Stanky's life view, rather than honing in not the school holidays issue.

Yes you are right we can afford to go away in school holiday, but that was not my point (I am well aware we are fortunate. I know people are suffering under this government that I hate and did not and would not vote for).

I don't see this unhappy world full of Work Bots marching to and from work then lying down to die like some Orwellian nightmare and I know people in all kinds of different cirumstances.

Also as I said in many many ways parents and women are better off nowadays, no thanks to this government, but thanks to policy and attitude change in last 15-20 years with flexible working, men having parental leave, women having longer maternity allowance, tax credits (sore subject now obviously).

Andrewofgg · 14/05/2016 10:29

BarbarianMum:

Maybe a few people should take their employers to court claiming the 'right to family life' rather than councils to court claiming the right to remove their children from school for holidays?

Employers can't generally have too many people on leave at the same time and the people with no school-age children of their own may want to holiday with GCs or siblings and their children or go to an event which happens in the holidays. You can't give the people with children preference. That would be grossly unfair; probably age-discrimination; and possible gender discrimination because in many workforces there are substantially more women than men with childcare responsibilities.

BarbarianMum · 14/05/2016 10:29

My question was about school holidays not summer holidays in isolation. And actually, no. I can think of very few businesses that could find no way at all of ensuring that anyone who wants it cannot have at least some of their leave in school holidays. Most businesses are not staffed solely by parents of school aged children and ime most people who don't have school aged children prefer not to book their annual leave in the school holidays. Most reasonable employers do manage to run their business in such a way that some give and take is possible. Of course it would be more convenient if parents didn't want this, or time off to care for a sick child or emergency parental leave but heigh ho, life can't just be about what's easiest for employers.

Andrewofgg · 14/05/2016 10:30

SouperSal Education does not all happen in a classroom but it doesn't happen on the beach.

apple1992 · 14/05/2016 10:34

Obviously, it's a different issue of there is genuine truancy and lack of engagement with school

Yes! And fines are not going to resolve those issues.

Fines do resolve some of these issues, largely where truancy or persistent absence is due to laziness. Fines are only used in 'minor' cases.
Severe cases of PA are tackled by offering all possible support then legal proceedings are started. Schools have to show they've done everything they can to support the child being in school, which in itself can tackle the attendance issues.

SouperSal · 14/05/2016 10:34

We live on the seafront Andrew so I respectfully disagree. Lots and lots of things to learn on the beach without even trying.

BoomBoomsCousin · 14/05/2016 10:37

Lots of education can happen on beaches Andrew. Last time I took my kids to the beach we looked covered biology, physics, maths, art, and PE as well as working on softer skills like negotiation.

BarbarianMum · 14/05/2016 10:37

I'm not suggesting employers discriminate Andrew I'm suggesting that most employers are able to share out annual leave so everyone gets a bit of what they want. There are quite a lot of school holidays in the year.

NickiFury · 14/05/2016 10:37

My child's school has an annual school trip to a seaside town so clearly they think some education happens on a beach.

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 10:38

Andrewofgg, I never holiday on the beach.

So do you have a problem with my cultural holidays, where I taste local food, take in local history, study the local geology, listen to the local music and language? And just generally experience somewhere different.

Or is that not educational?

More so than any child will ever get in a classroom.

Which is why in fact schools do field trips, day trips and overseas trips? Is it not?