To think there are size double standards on mumsnet?

[Tobeavsangel]

So I read a thread and a model is being ripped apart for her looks and size.

There was even a comment about how the company should pay her to eat .... Could you imagine the outrage if it was a plus size model and I said the company should have her cut down on her portion sizes?

I'm not even skinny (size 10) but I just hate this double standard on mumsnet.

Yanbu

And when was the last time you saw a man publicly shamed for being 'too skinny'?

My DH and now my son were/are bullied for being too skinny by the kids who, when I was a child, would have been considered overweight. Saying something about those children's size would be considered unkind but 'skinny' kids are fair game.

There is a lot of pressure on teenage boys to look a certain way too. Why do you think so many of them are using protein powder? It's ridiculously narrow minded to think that this is a one sided thing or that men are to blame for it.

It's unpleasant to say mean things about people.

...and wrong to discriminate against anyone for their size (even if technically they could do something about by forcing themselves to get over whatever is preventing them from changing their size)? .

Sticks and stones and all - yup it won't physically hurt you to be called names or whatever, but it still makes the name caller a bit of a cunt IMHO.

I think thin women get a rawer deal in general, than their larger counterparts

No, they really don't. Read the thread about having big boobs, and all the crap that goes along with that. Bet thin girls don't have yobs screamng 'go on a diet' at them when out on their bike, like I did. Finding clothes to fit is a whole lot easier. People disapprove of fat people left right and centre.

And re the models, yes there should be a lower limit for BMI, for the simple reason that very underweight girls were walking off the catwalk and dying. That's why it was imposed (google the Ramos sisters).

You get assholes teasing you if you're flat chested too.

Assholes will always find something offensive to shout at someone.

Indeed bumbley. People who make nasty comments about other people's size are just a wee bit cunty imho.

You get assholes teasing you if you're flat chested too.

True, but thin, flat-chested people have a fairly culturally-significant vindication (that. say, the large-breasted and/or fat do not) in that every piece of designer clothing is fitted onto a body that looks like theirs, and every catwalk model has their thin, small-breasted body shape.

Even when you get an unpleasant individual/group making jibes about skinniness and flat-chestedness - and you may even not be wild about it yourself - you're still aware that, in general, Western society sees your body type as ideal.

There is fat shaming, which in my opinion starts at a much lower level than thin shaming starts but both exist

I would say fat shaming is more prevalent as more of us are fat and before anyone gets overexcited at that comment i mean statistically

People made comments about what i ate and drank and how i looked when i was skinny and now i am fat. Especially at easter when i had one after eight following dinner...thanks FIL

And people can be paranoid..."you are looking well" is taken as an insult sometimes as well as "its all right for you, you are lovely and slim" i have seen friends take offence at both.

But if you feel that people are always commenting then you are going to get very upset at what someone else thinks is a quite innocuous comment

I shop with my DDs. I was a size 14-16 (I lost five stone last year, first time I've been overweight at 47).

I carry the clothes that they are going to try on, they're aged 18-30, size 8-12 and from other Women, I've had numerous remarks along the lines of 'size of her and she thinks she can wear that'.

These aren't teen girls making these remarks.

My DDs have really naturally thin friends, they don't get the abuse that the larger young Women get.

Sit on a bus, with teen/young men on it and listen to them critiquing and insulting the Women that they pass.

The worse part about doing a BA as a Mature Student was the constant Sexist/Body Shaming (of anyone over a size 12) from the younger Students. There were a few 25+ Women, who also did that.

How many FB memes are there that take the piss out of waking up with a thin woman?

Body Shaming is constant.

I don't like the posts on MN that say things like "a size 10, isn't that slim", it depends on your frame etc and it doesn't depend on height.

There's a celebration of, not taking exercise, drinking excess alcohol and processed food, generally, on here.

YANBU

You should see the slating on MN some female celebrities get for their image, size, hair, make-up etc...the list is endless.

Often the people doing the slagging off, are self proclaimed feminists who can be seen on other threads, blaming the patriarchy for the fact a lot of teenage girls/women have poor self esteem when it comes to their looks...not the people sitting around the internet spouting venom.

The double standards can be very fucked up at times.

Milktooth I completely disagree that flat chested is seen as ideal.

Ami, no one should be commenting on your size, weight or eating habits, but can you not see that (while I've no doubt at all that those experiences are unpleasant, rude and invasive, especially if they're regular) those remarks are made because our society prizes your body type.

The hostility/curiosity/entitlement to touch etc comes from a position where you are assumed to be the 'superior' one (whether from genetics/eating habits/exercise etc) because of your body type, so the remarks are an attempt to cut you down to size/admiration/jealousy.

I mean, I can imagine that actually being the recipient of that kind of thing is pretty tiresome, but imagine the converse - that you're fat, and every time you eat anything in public it attracts negative and disgusted comments about greed and how you should be ashamed of yourself, that if you go for a run you attract laughter and spiteful remarks, that your children are teased because of your appearance, that there's an entire multi-billion pound industry dedicated to trying to capitalise on what is assumed to be your self-hatred, and that every time you open the newspaper or switch on the TV, body types like yours appear as illustrations to the 'obesity epidemic' and are linked to all kinds of social ills...

I completely disagree that flat chested is seen as ideal.

Show me a catwalk model with even medium sized breasts. I just googled the British Association of Model Agents website, which lists catwalk model statistics - and they say 32 to 34 inches for the bust. Obviously lingerie models, Victoria's Secret models etc will be much larger-breasted, but I'm talking about the female bodies you see on the catwalk, or in high-fashion magazines modelling premium designer brands.

MilkTooth that point would only stand if catwalk models were the only positive representations of women, or group of women considered 'attractive'. They are not. Go into any newsagents, look at the women portrayed on men's magazines or on the seedier tabloids. They are also very slim, but with big breasts.

Again, I think the inherent imbalance in how thin and fat people are treated in our society means that you can't directly compare skinny and fat shaming - but I think it is a bit bizarre to claim that large breasts aren't seen as desirable. In 2013 11,000 women had breast augmentation, and 4,600 had reductions. I think that speaks for itself.

Go into any newsagents, look at the women portrayed on men's magazines or on the seedier tabloids. They are also very slim, but with big breasts.

For sure, but as you say yourself, these are niche images of women specifically calculated to titillate, being portrayed topless or semi-clad in a soft porn/Page Three way - it's hardly prestige stuff, or something the majority of women aspire to (maybe excepting the very young and /or man-pleasing?)

To, say, an average woman in her twenties or thirties, what's more 'prestigious' or aspirational as a body type - Samantha Fox c. 1986 or one of the models in Harper's Bazaar photo spread?

I've just had a summer catalogue for the upmarket clothing brand Toast come through my letterbox, and flicking through its various images of beautiful, chiselled models posing on beaches in expensive summer clothes, their chests are as flat as a boy's in literally every picture.

I think there's an awful lot of fat-shaming on here as well. That rather odd thread in Chat yesterday where the woman posted a picture of her body in her undies was a case in point.
Also, I've noticed you get a lot of slim women saying indignantly that they eat plenty, however if you had an overweight woman saying that they ate very little they'd be accused of being in denial and told to keep a food diary.

MilkTooth well, again, I'd point to those cosmetic surgery figures. The 'average' woman is much more likely to want her breasts enlarged than she is to have anything else done to her body. Doesn't that say something?

I also think [takes deep breath as going into dangerous territory] part of the issue is that there is a class element here. I think upper middle-class professional women tend to aspire more to being 'waify', and that this is generally seen as a 'classier' look (as in your claim that it's 'aspirational'). I think for a lot of other women, like it or not, being 'sexy' is more highly valued.

I think you're right about social class and aspirational body type, Margaret.

Amicissima, and you're right not to care. But let me say again, for every poke or catty remark about the 'crime' of slenderness, you have the bulwark of the fact that your body type, whether you work at it or not, is considered the acme of female attractiveness. Fat women are far more liable to public criticism, mockery and body-shaming than their thin equivalents, and without the comforting knowledge that their body type is widely regarded as beautiful, and one of the primary indicators of a healthy lifestyle.

YABU

There was a thread the other day where posters were happily telling a poster that she needed to lose weight. She had not sought weight loss advice.

It goes both ways on MN.

But wasn't that the thread about the woman who was dreading summer because of the way she felt about her body?

No.

I've run the gamut from underweight to obese. While I got "skinny shaming" comments when I was thin it was always so obviously jealousy. Especially as I always had far more compliments and positive attention for my body size and shape then I ever had negative. It wasn't until I lost a lot of weight quickly that 1 friend asked if I was ok because I was getting really thin. Everyone else was still complimenting me. When I started gaining weight everyone couldn't stop telling me what diet to do, how awful I was looking, how it was going to affect my health. No one stopped to ask why I was gaining weight. Because I was happy for the first time in .... Ever! I never got compliments, everyone assumed I hated how I looked and I was always pointed to plus sized clothes (that were too big for me). When I would lose weight no one said a thing, but when I would gain it back they would comment straight away, like they were gloating.
Yes thin people can get comments but it doesn't have the same undertones of disgust.

YADNBU.

At the University of Minnesota this week, in the department of Health self-proclaimed "Fat Activist" Virgie Tover, has compared Thin culture to Rape culture, and criticised society as a whole for conforming to 'Thin Privilege'

"for every poke or catty remark about the 'crime' of slenderness, you have the bulwark of the fact that your body type, whether you work at it or not, is considered the acme of female attractiveness. "

Not really. Apparently 'real women have curves'. Thin women are often described as 'stick figures'.