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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Babies in travel systems

430 replies

Excusemeforpostinghere · 11/05/2016 08:03

Am I bu that I just get the rage when I see babies in carseats clunked to the pram?

Am I being a judgypants?

Fair enough on the nip in & out jobs like school run.

But supermarket? Theme park? National trust gardens? Running? Town? Zoo? Places were the child is likely going to have been in that carseat for a few hours!

They've already been in it for the car journey. I bet likely, some will only be out of them all day for feeding time.

I watched holiday supersavers last night and the baby did the walk to supermarket, around supermarket and walk nack home again in the flippin carseat!

I just want to go up to them and tell them to stop being lazy and think of their child's spine development.

OP posts:
LilySnape · 12/05/2016 21:34

exactly flowerpower10 its ridiculous to spend that much on a life saving device though according to this lotHmm

splendide · 12/05/2016 21:35

Are there any complete reclining ERF though?

ProseccoMadeMeDoIt · 12/05/2016 21:36

Statistically Challenged - As I understand it, it isn't the law BUT when buying a second hand car seat from somebody you don't know. You will have no idea if it's been in a car accident. Once a car seat, like a crash helmet, has been in an accident it shouldn't be used, even if it appears to have no damage, it may be so shouldn't be used.

LilySnape · 12/05/2016 21:39

the britax max romer 2 is reclining they stay isofixed to the car though so not the same as a 0-12 seat with a handle you plonk on a frame ive earmarked the romer for my 1st baby or the Klippan kiss 2

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/05/2016 21:42

That was my understanding too Prosecco, but Lily suggested it was the law to tip them

The Cybex is £240, plus if you want to be properly safe it's another £120 for the Isofix base as the biggest issue with car seat safety is generally them being incorrectly fitted. Do you actually have no comprehension that for many people £240 (or £360) is actually a lot of money?

Oysterbabe · 12/05/2016 21:43

I guess we were all young and stupid once. Hopefully Lily will successfully conceive and then realise that there is really very little parenting you can learn on paper and babies don't care what's best for them.

LilySnape · 12/05/2016 21:52

yes its the most expensive bit of kit for the baby that's why you save up for 9months for it sure buy a 2nd hand system and clothes if you have to but a good quality cat seat like the cybex is of paramount importance

smudgedlipstick · 12/05/2016 21:53

I loved my travel system, it was so easy just to pop into a supermarket to pick a few things up if bub was asleep, but I didn't like using it for any longer, it can't be comfortable for them! It's helpful for short term but that's it

TheVillagePost · 12/05/2016 21:56

Yabu. I still leave my DS in his if he's fallen asleep in the car on the way to the supermarket. He's just turned 10 months and no spine problems, in fact has just started walking. Mind your own and get some hobbies.

BertieBotts · 12/05/2016 21:58

Sorry this took me ages to write and then I forgot to post it Blush

Please don't be upset by the thread, scarednoob. I wish I had the energy to go through and debunk every single rubbish myth with no evidential basis at all on this thread but there are too many. Please be assured that 99% of them are totally nonsense.

I can tell you that there is no basis for the curved spine theory. The oxygen saturations one does have a basis, but it's not significant enough to be a huge risk you need to worry about. I'll try to explain.

Healthy normal oxygen saturation levels are anything over 95%. Because of the position of a car seat needing to be 45 degrees or steeper (to protect against the forces of an accident) this can sometimes result in a chin-to-chest position in the car seat, as you know. When babies get into this chin-to-chest position it can reduce their oxygen saturations, over a long time, very slowly. The studies which have been done show that it's extremely rare for them to dip below 80% in a two hour period (most remained in the 90s) This is reported as "significant" but significant, here, does not mean dangerous, it just means statistically it's significant ie it's definitely a change, and not just a random fluctuation. It's also important to note that these studies were performed on two day old babies - older babies are much less likely to have difficulties.

There are US studies which show that the dangers mainly pertain to premature babies or babies with abnormalities which affect the respiratory system. In fact this is so widely recognised in the US that premature babies routinely undergo a "carseat test" before they are allowed to leave hospital. The risk is not considered significant for full term babies.

Babies slipping into an oxygen saturation range in the mid-80s is (a) rare, (b), likely to happen in the second hour rather than the first and (c) not at all life threatening. (In adults it results in minor temporary reduction in attention.) The problem happens either when parents are leaving babies to sleep in car seats for much longer periods, such as overnight - this has not been explicitly tested, but the information we have suggests that this would likely result in much further reduced oxygen saturation levels which are actually dangerous. The other problem would be if you are using the two hour limit repeatedly all day every day. Again, we don't have actual concrete data on babies, but people who are consistently experiencing oxygen saturation levels in the mid-80s due to heavy smoking and/or medical conditions (ie, all the time, not once a day or once every few days) show long term effects, but these are minor, and we don't know if they are caused by other factors (it could be correlation e.g. a problem caused by their illness.)

I would not sit and put your hand under his head to hold it up. Partly because this isn't necessarily helping with the problem, but partly because think about what would happen in an accident - your hand would become a missile and that close to his face, is not particularly safe.

Instead here are some things that you can do to help reduce the risks (and hopefully your anxiety! :)) - note you don't need to do ALL of them at once but it might help to have something to do.

  • Consider investing in a lie flat car seat such as the Baby Safe Sleeper (but only if this is practical and affordable for your family)
  • Use the newborn insert if one came with your car seat as this gives a flatter lie. (Don't be tempted to fashion one yourself or use a third party one. These can make the harness fit too loosely.)
  • Avoid long car journeys as much as possible - consider postponing longer trips until your baby is able to hold his/her own head up and is less sleepy.
  • While your baby is still newborn/tending to fall into the chin-to-chest position, if you do go on long trips aim to stop every 90 minutes to 2 hours and remove them from their car seat. A few minutes is fine.
  • If your baby is older and can hold their head up, it can help to plan car journeys for when they are awake, and keep them interested and looking up at you to avoid the chin-to-chest position. (If your baby isn't one of those who finds the car an instant sleeping pill OR one of those who screams constantly when awake in cars!)
  • Use the car seat only in the car, as far as possible. Avoid using it at home or on a travel system unless for a short time and for a necessary reason.
  • If you do use the car seat at home or as part of a travel system, try if it's possible to position the car seat at a more reclined angle, 30 degrees rather than the 45 which is necessary for safety in the car. Studies on premature babies showed that this positioning resulted in normal oxygen saturation levels. But positioning a car seat like this in a car will not provide protection in a road accident.
  • If you use the car seat at home or as part of a travel system consider taking the baby out for a few seconds while transferring the car seat, bearing in mind this might completely negate the point of using the car seat (ie, use common sense here).
  • You can gain a quick assessment of your baby's general respiratory rate (related) by counting the amount of breaths they take against the second hand of a watch. If they are breathing more rapidly than once a second, stop the car as soon as safely possible and remove them from the car seat. Anything from 30 to 60 breaths per minute is normal for a newborn.
  • Another warning sign you can watch or listen out for in the car seat is grunting. Occasional grunting and wheezing is normal for newborns but persistent grunting with every breath is a sign that they aren't able to get enough oxygen in fast enough. Again, stop as soon as it's safe (next services, not hard shoulder) and give him a break from the seat.

And finally - do consider seeing your GP if your anxiety is preventing you from relaxing and enjoying your baby. It sounds like it might be localised to this issue, but just in case. :)

glueandstick · 12/05/2016 22:02

What excellent and useful advice. Thank you for being a voice of reason.

Roversandrhodes · 12/05/2016 22:05

I haven't read the full thread and I'm usually the first one to complain at others judging parents ,I hate it ,normally.
However this does bug me a bit,tbh.
I don't know all the research that's been done,the healthy safety of it all or any statistics ,I just think it looks bloody uncomfortable and why would you want to do lay your baby like that for a long period of time.Im talking about those who have their baby in a car seat fixed onto a pram for a long period of time.
my neighbour has twins and the other day she had them asleep in their car seats in the garden ,not exactly a cause to ring social services I realise and it's not a crime but I just don't see why ?Isnt it obvious that they would be better off laid flat where possible ?

Buckinbronco · 12/05/2016 22:11

Hear hear

Only1scoop · 12/05/2016 22:12

Great post Bertie Botts

Oysterbabe · 12/05/2016 22:13

Maybe Rover because if you haven't slept in a month and have achieved the holy grail of both twins being asleep you don't want to fuck with that?

thebestfurchinchilla · 12/05/2016 22:18

Hmm not sure. I didn't use them, I loved a proper pram but I walked everywhere. I tended to use a sling if I was in and out of the car, then a buggy when they were 9 months or so.

BertieBotts · 12/05/2016 22:24

Just the same old load of bollocks being talked since I wrote that then...never mind Grin

Why on earth should Argos test seats? Should the corner shop run tests on the food they sell too? Or maybe we should leave it to the actual legal testing boards who test them, eh?

I agree many cheaper car seats are not that great - but no need to spend hundreds of pounds. The Joie Juva is £35 and is decent. The Graco infant seat also gets excellent ratings and isn't "cheap". And any car seat is better than no car seat. Second hand, cheap, extended rear facing, doesn't matter. What matters is they are in one.

BertieBotts · 12/05/2016 22:26

Sorry was not meaning the nice posts between my last two Blush I mean the drivel about needing an expensive car seat and laws about taking things to the tip.

glueandstick · 12/05/2016 22:26

You mean it's not better to just shove them in a washing basket in the boot?! Shocking!

(There need to be more people like you)

CurlyhairedAssassin · 12/05/2016 22:40

LilySnape, I'm not quite sure if you're just having a bit of a laugh with us all or not, but just in case you are for real, if I were you I would be more worried about what appears to be a bit of a strange obsession with baby equipment when you don't actually have a baby. it's all a bit.....OCD. Do you suffer with that? I would seriously try and get that under control before you even try to conceive because I worry for your mental health during pregnancy and afterwards otherwise. (I am being serious).

Legendofthephoenix · 13/05/2016 00:11

LilySnape what ever fantasy you have in your head bin it. You will not learn how to parent on these forums and theres no parenting book you can buy. I have 4 children and I have never obsessed over anything we buy it when we need it and we buy it cheap. Lets just face it they grow very quickly.

If you are truly serious about having children learn about there development and how to support them through it.

Curlyhairedassasin don't worry about her mental health she sounds uneducated on babies and children and their needs. We have to educate her about the truth of motherhood no one cares about the latest ranges from Graco. I am 32 and I have come to the realisation that I will enjoy my Grandchildren but right now I am a constant nag practice your piano pieces, practice the viola do your revision, complete your homework, finnish that sentence. It goes on forever but I am looking forward to spending the holidays with them without nagging.

TheNewStatesman · 13/05/2016 00:17

There has apparently been a big increase in flat-head issues, which appears to be partly linked to OVER-use of car seats. They aren't really supposed to be little all-day beds for babies.

It's a shame because they can be a real life saver for parents who are in and out of the car all day and trying to juggle naps.

waitingforsomething · 13/05/2016 00:27

I only commented near the beginning of the thread and several hundred posts later I still think the op is being unreasonable.
However, more unreasonable is Lily. Lily who claims to know more about babies and car seats than actual experienced parents. So rude I hope lily once you have your baby you don't get a screamer who will only settle for an hour ok her car seat

Legendofthephoenix · 13/05/2016 00:28

Their little heads is very restricted he/she can't move as freely as they want to. I love using baby chairs brilliant for rocking them to sleep and they can move their head freely never had problems with flat head syndrome.

Legendofthephoenix · 13/05/2016 00:50

I think the best way to describe LilySnape is neurotic or a hypocondriac.