To think it's a bit weird when men get over protective about their DDs having boyfriends?

[PinkyOfPie]

BIL has a thing about his DD getting a boyfriend (she's only 5!) and keeps saying things like he'll wait at home with a baseball bat when she goes on her first date and tells her she can't have a boyfriend until she's 21. Apparently he "knows what lads that age are like and how they treat girls" He doesn't do it in a jokey way either has no sense of humour.

This isn't the first time I've encountered this over protective attitude, and it's often portrayed on TV/films too. AIBU to think it's ridiculous and unhealthy? My dad was always fine with me having BFs as a teen, as long as they were treating me right.i think it's rather unfair to assume all boys are shitheads to girls.

Not blaming mothers for raising rapists, just pointing out that lots of rapists are being raised.

I think that is pretty much undeniable.

I'm pointing out that if all you care about is your son having a nice life, that it doesn't matter because he'll almost certainly get away with it.

It's because he knows what they are like because he was a little prick like he's describing.

My dad was glad of a boyfriend who would take me off their hands.

I do wonder if the same people who take the "Ill smash his face in" stance about their DDs BFs, also tell their sons to watch out for the girls who'll try and sneakily get pregnant or cry rape? If it walks like a mysoginist and talks like a mysoginist....

"CantWait, anyone who really thinks of boys as being "potential future predators" are simply not worth the effort of trying to reason with, if they come out with such crap."

Am I missing something?

Men like the OP's BIL and the husbands who say they will beat up any boy who comes within 50 yards of their daughters, are the ones who are thinking of boys as being "potential future predators", are they not?

People who are arguing against characterising boys in this way, are the ones who don't agree with this proposition.

And this is why I cannot connect with "Feminism". I will not be patronised or dismissed by "feelz" and "menz" just because I'm raising a point that falls outside what is allowed by Feminists.

Perhaps I'm just a small f feminist.

Fourormore, what are you actually talking about?

I'm totally bamboozled by what you are actually arguing?

Pinky I appreciate the sanctuary comparison however by saying "menz", that kind of phrase actively trivializes male problems, so imagine if the cat sanctuary actively mocked injured donkeys, people who cared about donkeys would rightfully get upset about it and ask why, for people who claimed to care about animals, they made light of one group of animals suffering.

Where does the 80,000 a year figure come from? That seems a very high number, to the point where if there was that many convictions going through the courts every year, 80,000 out of a population of 60 million people in your country going to jail for 1 offence, that's a shockingly high number, and I suspect there would be a massive news spectacle about it.

Basil pretty much yes. The amount of dads who are so overprotective to the point you described of wanting to injure anyone coming within 50 yards of their daughter do a huge disservice to all men with their attitude. Ironically, it is usually this extreme desire to protect their daughter that ends up driving their daughter away from them. Whereas if they just sat down with the guy and asked "look, treat her fairly and with respect, if the relationship doesn't work out that's fine, but just be cool with her" they would probably have a much better relationship with their daughter, and they'd probably have a good relationship with the man who may become part of the family in later life.

"That seems a very high number"

That's because it is.

Most rapes are not reported - only between 10 and 15% are ever reported to the police, so already 85-90% of rapists are getting away with it without even needing to make up a story to cover themselves.

Of the ones which are reported, most do not go to court - only the strongest cases get through and about 90% get thrown out at investigation stage because there isn't a 51%+ chance of conviction (the threshold needed for the CPS to decide to take a case).

These figures are from the British Crime Survey (as was, I can't remember its rebranded name ) and government figures. Baroness Stern did a big review a couple of years ago and gathered lots of figures together.

And yes, you would have thought it would be big news, wouldn't you?

I can't imagine why it isn't. Oh wait. Patriarchy.

I'm say that men and women both have different kinds of struggles and when Feminists dismiss the struggles that men have by calling them "menz" or dismiss a mother saying she worries about her male child's future by diminishing her concerns to "feelz", I switch off.

Actually Feminism plays a part in perpetuating the patriarchy. Feminism seems to simultaneously argue that women aren't weak and shouldn't be treated as such and also that they are vulnerable victims and that they need to be protected from the "menz".

I don't think it's possible to be successful at fighting for women's rights or men's rights (lower case, not in the MRA sense, although I've also seen that used in a dismissive way) without fully acknowledging that one CAN'T be separated from the other. There is no nice clean line that says "this is a woman's issue" or "this is an man's issue" because most of the time, there is some overlap. You can't solve the problem if you're refusing to look at half of the picture.

85% of rapes or rapists? Because that's going to skew the figures somewhat.

Agreed Chilled.

The other harmful thing men like this are doing when they say things like this, apart from driving their daughters away, is that they are showing boys what is expected of them.

Boys hear these messages. They learn that in order to be a "real man" they need to play the field, pretend to want sex all the time (even if they are terrified of doing it first time) and show no respect for girls' boundaries. They learn that they are expected to be a malign, predatory presence in girls' lives.

What sort of message is that? What sort of internalisation must boys go through, to live up to that? It's bloody awful.

Whereas if they just sat down with the guy and asked "look, treat her fairly and with respect, if the relationship doesn't work out that's fine, but just be cool with her" they would probably have a much better relationship with their daughter, and they'd probably have a good relationship with the man who may become part of the family in later life.

Or they could just not do that, because it's weird and intrusive and ownery.

You teach your daughter not to accept shifty treatment, and point out to her how to spot incipient signs.

You don't talk to the guy she's with as though his treatment of her is a negotiation between the two of you.

Refusing to do the work of half the picture, isn't the same as refusing to look at half the picture, Fourormore.

Dismissing a whole movement which works for the liberation from second class status for half of humanity, just because you don't like some of the language some people in the movement use on the interweb, is a very extreme response if you don't mind me saying so.

I can't stand some of the terms used by lefty-boy socialists. I can't stand lots of lefty boy socialists in fact. But I'm not going to dismiss the whole idea, because some of them piss me off.

chilled I got the numbers wrong - it's actually 85,000 rapes and sexual assaults a year see here

You misunderstand the use of the word "menz" here. No one is mocking men's experiences.

An example of how "menz" argument is used:

"85,000 women get raped and sexually assualted a year. Let's discuss how awful that is."

"Men get raped too you know".

It's not mocking anyone, it's venting frustration that women's issues can't be discussed without mentioning how things affect men. We don't always have to include how things affect men into our conversations.

Fourormore - 85-90% of rapes.

We know rapists are repeat offenders, so as you point out, it's not going to be 85-90% of rapists, but it's obviously difficult to say how many rapists that is.

I've read different estimates of how many men are rapists. 1 in 8, 1 in 12, 1 in 14, 1 in 20 and 1 in 60 are all figures I've come across.

I have no idea which one is most accurate and tbh I doubt if anyone does.

My dad didn't allow boyfriends to come into the house, he wouldn't be nice to them either. My mother was worse, you couldn't be playing on the street if there were boys around without her calling you in to stop you "offering yourself" (she started saying that when we were not even 8)

What did they got out of that protection? Not knowing anything about us and our relationships. We still had the same life that other young people had (although we may have perhaps put ourselves in more difficult situations), we just kept everything secret from them.

....

Feminism seems to simultaneously argue that women aren't weak and shouldn't be treated as such and also that they are vulnerable victims and that they need to be protected from the "menz".

Those damn feminists, calling 85,000 women a year victims. Don't they know women should be strong

The "feelz" comment was not about women worrying about the future of their sons - it was in response to people getting pissy about the fact that some men turn into rapists. If you are raising your son to not rape women, then this does not apply to you.

Feminism seems to simultaneously argue that women aren't weak and shouldn't be treated as such and also that they are vulnerable victims and that they need to be protected from the "menz".

Both of those things can be true simultaneously.

doin hope you don't mind me reporting that post just as it has someone's email address in somehow - random!

I'm not dismissing the whole idea, obviously, as I said above, perhaps I'm just a small f feminist.

And as a feminist/Feminist, I'd expect you to understand that "some of the language used by people in the movement" is actually quite important. Think of some of the language used by people in the Fathers4Justice movement, or the EDL. Some of the language can actually say a lot about the movement itself.

Pinky - that's actually what I don't understand about feminism. The above exchange tells me that women get raped. It also tells me that men get raped. So people get raped. Why do we need to talk about one sex and not the other? Why are we not looking at "victims of rape"? Perhaps the person saying "men get raped too" is the man who got raped. Why is it okay to dismiss that person's experience of rape? Is including male victims' experiences somehow diminishing what happens to women? I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that feminism is the notion that people shouldn't be treated differently just because they don't have a penis (or in the positive form, people should be treated equally, regardless of their sex) so why is the reverse - that men shouldn't be treated differently (or that people - victims of sexual violence - should be treated equally, regardless of their sex) so offensive?

Isn't that the point? For people to be treated equally?

Doin, can you explain that a bit more, please?

If you are raising your son to not rape women, then this does not apply to you.

Perhaps people get pissy because other people name ridiculous statements like this. Who on earth "raises a rapist".

Ask I've also heard various "1 in X" on how many men are rapists, such conflicting information but there is one thing that is agreed - on in UK 1 in 5 women experience sexual violence from the age of 16. This is too fucking many and I think if 1 in 5 men experienced any sort of personal crime against them there'd be laws and convictions left right and centre. Interesting how chilled (who was unaware of the numbers in rape stats) pointed out that 80,000 would be big news. It should be, but it's not, he should be right. No one cares much about women's issues, and we still have ever such a long way to go in terms of equality!

Thanks pinky I don't know what happened there.