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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's a bit weird when men get over protective about their DDs having boyfriends?

331 replies

PinkyOfPie · 08/05/2016 15:11

BIL has a thing about his DD getting a boyfriend (she's only 5!) and keeps saying things like he'll wait at home with a baseball bat when she goes on her first date and tells her she can't have a boyfriend until she's 21. Apparently he "knows what lads that age are like and how they treat girls" Hmm He doesn't do it in a jokey way either has no sense of humour.

This isn't the first time I've encountered this over protective attitude, and it's often portrayed on TV/films too. AIBU to think it's ridiculous and unhealthy? My dad was always fine with me having BFs as a teen, as long as they were treating me right.i think it's rather unfair to assume all boys are shitheads to girls.

OP posts:
Fourormore · 08/05/2016 23:49

If you read my whole post, you will see that I explained the damage caused, to both men and women. If you wish to ignore my point, that is your choice.

chilledwarmth · 08/05/2016 23:50

The fact that I disagree with your stance on how to handle rape allegations doesn't mean I don't wish to take them seriously btw. It means that I take them just as seriously as you, I just have a different stance on how they should be handled. My stance is that as soon as an allegation is made, it needs to be investigated with no default assumption by the investigators as to the guilt or innocence of either party. Society should never assume that someone is a rapist because a woman says he raped her. But crucially what I think you overlooked is that I also don't think society should just accept his word that he is innocent either. The severity of the alleged crime is such that it would be a travesty to justice if we reduced it to simply believing one person's word of anothers. The investigation and the testing of the evidence uncovered is the only way we can start to form an objective opinion about who to believe.

PinkyOfPie · 08/05/2016 23:50

I have however seen endless "what was she wearing", "why was she walking home alone" victim blaming comment. In fact many were made today on the FB site of a local newspaper reporting a teenager who was raped walking home at night. i have never seen "poor menz" or anything remotely similar in response to a male rape victim story - in fact I have only ever seen sympathy - which is exactly how it should be

OP posts:
PinkyOfPie · 08/05/2016 23:51

If you wish to ignore my point, that is your choice.

I am not ignoring your point, I am asking where exactly people have posted "poor menz" in in relation to male rape victims and you have not shown me.

OP posts:
KindDogsTail · 08/05/2016 23:53

PinkyofPie

There were some threads a few weeks which showed thing so worrying you wouldn't believe. Obviously your daughter has to have friends and you can't lock her up but your husband has reason for his worries. I could not believe some things I read in these threads.

You will need to talk to your daughter a lot so she really understands what a good relationship is and she knows how to stand up for herself.

Some of things discussed in these threads overlap but you might be interested if you did not read them before. You may not think porn is relevant, but it is what it is leading to that's very worrying. Basically girls are being cheated of relationships.
It is anything but romantic.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2610074-Anybody-up-for-a-general-chat-about-the-damaging-effects-of-porn-on-young-people

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2613376-UK-Government-concerned-too-many-people-could-be-trying-anal-sex

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2613376-UK-Government-concerned-too-many-people-could-be-trying-anal-sex

Fourormore · 08/05/2016 23:54

Again - I wasn't talking about a direct comment to a victim. I was talking about the impact of attitudes and implications and how that affects what future victims will do.

Goodness me, even if you don't agree with me, surely you can see the point I'm actually making?

Fourormore · 08/05/2016 23:55

I am not ignoring your point, I am asking where exactly people have posted "poor menz" in in relation to male rape victims and you have not shown me.

Because. That. Was. Not. The. Point. I. Was. Making.

PinkyOfPie · 08/05/2016 23:59

My stance is that as soon as an allegation is made, it needs to be investigated with no default assumption by the investigators as to the guilt or innocence of either party.

It may have passed your notice that rape is, and should, be handled differently to increase the amount of victims who come forward, ergo protect more people from rapists. 5.7% conviction rate is not good enough.

Picture for a second, a woman who has been raped, most likely by someone she knows. It takes an enormous amount of bravery to come forward to talk about her experience in the first place (rape culture plays the biggest part in this difficulty, kudos to comments like yours for that), in order to carry through the complaint to trial, she needs people around her who believe and have confidence in her. The minute you tell a rape victim "we don't believe you, but we don't not believe you", bam, she runs a mile. Hence the reason why police are trained in the way they deal with victims and the language they use. The world is already against victims in terms of victim blaming and doubting her story, she needs support at every corner and the accused will just have to lump it I'm afraid! The same goes for male rape victims btw.

I have never found this "I'm not sure I believe them" attitude in anything except rape. If you read a story about burglary the vast majority of people would accept it happened. Read a story about rape - apologists rattle out the "innocent until proven guilty" line

OP posts:
PinkyOfPie · 08/05/2016 23:59

What point were you making then four? If it didn't happen how can you be mad about it?

OP posts:
PinkyOfPie · 09/05/2016 00:01

I was talking about the impact of attitudes and implications and how that affects what future victims will do.

But no one has the "menz" attitude! It was hypothetical!

OP posts:
chilledwarmth · 09/05/2016 00:43

Of course you wouldn't say to someone who has just made an allegation "you might be telling the truth, you might not". There is such a thing as tact you know, specially trained officers will know how to handle it and what to say and what not to say. Really, I can't believe that you would assume that it would be ok to say that to an actual victim.

Pledging "support" to accusers while adopting a prejudicial attitude of "the accused will just have to lump it" is not conducive to the workings of justice at all. Justice is about fairness, meaning fairness towards the accused as well as the accuser. Your attitude sounds like you've already made up your mind that every accused is guilty, and every accuser is telling the truth.

chilledwarmth · 09/05/2016 00:47

Comparing it with someone who has been burglarized isn't really the same. People may believe a burglary has taken place but they won't automatically accept that the person you accuse of doing it is guilty. The investigators will ask if there's any other people who you can think of that might have had a motive, any enemies you have, so there won't be a default belief either despite you claiming there is.

PinkyOfPie · 09/05/2016 00:53

Of course you wouldn't say to someone who has just made an allegation "you might be telling the truth, you might not". There is such a thing as tact you know, specially trained officers will know how to handle it and what to say and what not to say. Really, I can't believe that you would assume that it would be ok to say that to an actual victim

Hmm I didn't. Are you even reading my posts or are you being sarcastic? You do realise this is the exact attitude you're taking?

My point re burglary is that no one would be in 2 minds wether or not the burglary even took place, if someone said "I've been burgled", or of you read it in the paper, you wouldn't think or say "well I'm going to see if the investigation tells me that's true or not or if you are just making it up". This does happen with rape, all the time.

OP posts:
PinkyOfPie · 09/05/2016 00:54

Your attitude sounds like you've already made up your mind that every accused is guilty, and every accuser is telling the truth.

If someone told me they were raped, my first reaction would always be that I believe them.

OP posts:
FeliciaJollygoodfellow · 09/05/2016 01:24

This is the most ludicrous argument I have ever heard.

Women shouldn't be disdainful about 'the menz' because it's hurtful? Four and Chilled you both know that men aren't opening up about their experiences and being jeered at, you both know that 'the menz' is used when men won't allow a conversation that centres around the violence women face at the hands of men to not include them. Women are allowed to have these conversations. Men are too, but they generally don't.

And FWIW OP I agree with your OP. Your BIL sounds like a tool.

chilledwarmth · 09/05/2016 03:18

No that is not the attitude I'm taking. I can't imagine why you are talking about telling rape victims "you might or might not be telling the truth". Saying something like that would be very insensitive, and wouldn't contribute anything towards the investigation. While you may not automatically believe an allegation, you shouldn't be actually saying to someone who might very well be a victim of a serious crime "well you might not be telling the truth". It's not about who believes who, it's about taking the allegation and investigating it, showing no prejudice to either the accuser OR the accused. A rape investigation needs to be as fair to the alleged rapist as it is to the alleged victim, because while the investigation is ongoing it can't be known for sure which one of them is the liar.

PinkyOfPie · 09/05/2016 07:36

chilled I have copied below my earlier post and I'd like you to tell me where I'm condoning telling rape victims "you might or might not be telling the truth" (although I don't know why I'm bothering, you're perfectly aware I didn't say that and are clearly trying to wind me up).

Picture for a second, a woman who has been raped, most likely by someone she knows. It takes an enormous amount of bravery to come forward to talk about her experience in the first place (rape culture plays the biggest part in this difficulty, kudos to comments like yours for that), in order to carry through the complaint to trial, she needs people around her who believe and have confidence in her. The minute you tell a rape victim "we don't believe you, but we don't not believe you", bam, she runs a mile. Hence the reason why police are trained in the way they deal with victims and the language they use. The world is already against victims in terms of victim blaming and doubting her story, she needs support at every corner and the accused will just have to lump it I'm afraid! The same goes for male rape victims btw.

So, you apparently don't believe that rape victims should be told "we believe you", but nor do you believe they should be told "we're on the fence" - so please mansplain tell me what you should say to people who've come forward claiming to have been raped?

I believe that women who come forward to police and say "I was raped" should be told "I believe you". This is not being unfair to the accused (if there even is one, she may not know who raped her), and yes an investigation and trial should uncover the events that happened. What you aren't grasping is the fact that in order for it to have the victim fully on board with taking it through to the end, she has to have support and belief behind her. That is not being unfair to the accused anymore than supporting someone who claims they were punched in the face I seeing unfair to the accused

OP posts:
PinkyOfPie · 09/05/2016 07:43

Exactly Felicia. Still waiting for links to the non existent thread where someone has opened up about their male rape experience and the replies have been "aww poor menz". No one has managed to link yet, apparently it doesn't need to be said to be relevant. I'm off to get upset about a whole bunch of things that no one has ever said like"all women should be tortured and have their boobs cut off and shoved up their bum, because we hate vaginas". No one said it but it doesn't need to be said to be relevant. And if you don't get that you're stupid Confused

OP posts:
RufusTheReindeer · 09/05/2016 07:55

pinky

four is saying that on a thread about female rape victims when a comment is made that "men get raped too" that sometimes a poster will say "menz" and that this might be offputting to a real life male rape victim or their family

She has not said that if a male rape victim says "i was raped" or a member if the family says" my brother was raped" that someone says"menz"

As other posters on here have said usually anyone who just throws out the "men get raped too" comment are attempting to derail

I do not agree with four

sconebonjovi · 09/05/2016 08:25

The only thing four has said that I agree with is that they're not a feminist. This thread is so frustrating to read!

PoundingTheStreets · 09/05/2016 10:35

Here's the reason not believing a rape victim is misogynistic:

In most cases that don't make it to court, the unprovable factor is consent. It's not usually that difficult to establish that sex has taken place, the question is 'did she consent to it?'

Now if she says she didn't, and he says she did, you have to ask yourself why she would lie if she'd enjoyed sex perfectly happly at the time.

Drunk? The law is pretty clear on that one - if you're drunk, you're incapable of consent. Anyone who has sex drunk is taking that risk. It's on your own head. And yes, not all drunk sex is rape, of course it isn't, but you risk-assess. And certainly in the context of a woman you've met at a club that night or a very new relationship, why would you take that risk? Because as well as the risk of being falsely labelled a rapist, you run the risk of actually being one and causing a woman huge amounts of distress. The vast majority of women who have what they see as consensual drunken sex they regret the next day, do not report that as rape.

Vindictive? To what end? Are we saying that women are inherently vindictive? How many women are likely to put themselves through the ordeal of an intimate examination and court, where their sexual history is paraded and they are cross examined, purely to 'get back' at someone?

A rapist has an inherent reason to lie - he has done something wrong and by denying it he may get away with it. A woman who claims she has been raped only has a reason to lie if she hasn't been raped. So by saying we should believe men and women equally, we are basically saying that women lie much more often than men.

And that's why it's misogynistic.

KindDogsTail · 09/05/2016 10:46

Pounding
Apropos of a raped girl having been drunk, this is one girl's description of what happened to her.

medium.com/thelist/i-was-raped-at-oxford-university-police-pressured-me-into-dropping-charges-30d37d25efa0#.

PoundingTheStreets · 09/05/2016 10:51

Kind - wrong on so many levels. Sad

I sometimes find it amazing that rape myths are still so abundant and attitudes to rape still so outdated in a society that is otherwise advancing at a tremendous rate.

CantWaitForWarmWeather · 09/05/2016 10:55

This thread is so frustrating to read!

Agreed.

KindDogsTail · 09/05/2016 11:12

Last week on radio 4 In Our Time about with Melvyn Bragg about Tess of the Durbervilles by Thomas Hardy written 1892

The academics talking were prevaricating about whether the character Tess had been raped and said 'We can't know" when the text clearly tells us the man had sex with her when she was alseep, after a point in the story where she had tried to get away from him, and Hardy compares what happened to her with medieval ancestors raping peasant girls still wearing their chain mail after a battle.... ie he is saying that though her rape may not have been as violent as that it was rape.

These are academics in 2016, saying we can;t know after all that! Many raped school girls and students may have been listening having read this extremely famous and popular book.

I started a thread about it in feminism and then in Books
I have written into the programme contact and to Feed BAck. It probably will do no good.

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