To be furious with this teacher.

[AlarmBells]

Sorry this is a bit long but I need a rant!

So, but of background, ds who's 8 has had a difficult relationship with school. We've been in a few times to talk about behaviour. (Attitude, talking back, arguing in class)

Every time we've been in I've tried my best to be supportive. I don't agree with punishing children twice for offenses, but I have a stern talk with him when we get home and we talk about what's triggering it, and how me and the teacher can help him.

We were called in again today, another frustrating session. Apparently DS swore and shouted at a boy in class, who (and the teacher admitted it) had been annoying him by sticking his tongue out and making noises at him.

She says he'she's often rude and talks back consistently...he says the other kids in class are always annoying him. I asked what was being done about that and teacher smiled patronisingly, rolled her eyes and said she's had a word with the parents and the children. She then turned to DS and said 'we are talking about YOUR behaviour though' with another smirk.

Anyway, we left, I again promised to talk to DS when home. She saw us to the door. However when she turned back I realised we'd forgotten his book bag, so I caught door as it was closing and nipped back in (DS stayed outside).

I was just outside the class room and heard this exchange.

' Do you have a brick wall I can bag my head against'
'Is it xxxxx again?'
'Oh God, he's just so rude! And his mum thinks he sh*ts gold, that's the problem! He just gets home and whines to mummy he's being picked on and she laps up every word! Funny how he only does that when he gets a bollocking. Little shit'
'What are you going to do?'
'She sounds like she's making screechy sound from psycho, they laugh'.

I quickly and quietly get out, but I'm still fuming. Totally unprofessional, yes? I know they thought I was out the building, but still. I now know a few things:

1. She has talked about my son like this before.
2. she refers to children as 'little shits'
3. She is completely two faced
4. she has no regards for ds's feelings during all this.

What's my next move? Feeling distraught. May email head tonight/ tommorow morning.

The daily log book is great. Most days when I open it I see DS is well behaved and I breath a sigh of relief - and when I tell him I'm proud if hi for behaving well he's pleased and he gets to watch his favourite cartoon when we get home. On the days were there are issues I am aware of them quickly - and can talk to him - and cancel the cartoon for that day. It's very effective.

Not nice to hear, but I think you need to rethink your approach.

My mum always says that children behave differently at school as they think they're parents aren't watching.

Clearly a more effective approach is needed (privileges being removed, days out cancelled). Does you child have siblings? Maybe, I know not nice, but showing how behaviour effects others may be needed.

The teacher shouldn't have said it, but, clearly the situation isn't going forward and everyone is at the end of their patience.

I'm a teacher. Everyone is entitled to say what they want about anyone in private. However, she was unprofessional not to ensure you and your child was not in earshot. You should have told her this at the time and she would have been suitably mortified and been extra nice to you and your child from then on. To complain now and take it further will escalate the bad feeling between you all. You don't want this: you want her on your son's side.

I'm sorry that your son is having such a difficult time at school. I am afraid that the only way to improve things is to make sure that your son has boundaries. He is learning his disrespect for this teacher from you, and his behaviour is a direct result of your parenting. Everyone makes mistakes and don't beat yourself up about it but you need to stop sleepwalking through this and act now. The way you treat your son has put him in this difficult position, you now need to get him out of it.

YABU. Nothing like overhearing something like this to hear the real truth. Turn it into a positive and act on what you heard. It sounds like they're doing their best with him and bloody well need some reinforcement from his parents! Take a look at your parenting skills, sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. If he continues like this he's gonna get nowhere fast. Sorry to be blunt but you really need to take a long hard look!

Alarm you've handled the situation really well. Great that you and his teacher are working on this together. I think it was particularly good that you let her know that you had heard her rant, but that you want to move on positively.

I hope you and the teacher see improvement in your son's behavious soon.

YABU - everyone needs to vent and it was a private conversation. You do need to address your child's behaviour and if my child were behaving like that, he'd get a total rollocking from me as well as school! It's really important that you and the teachers stick together or he'll start playing you off against each other.

Also - I've been known to refer to my own children as little sh**s at times... in private! It doesn't mean that I generally don't think they're fantastic.

Sure she shouldn't have said it, but that's not really the issue here. I also totally agree - it's not appropriate for her to discuss other pupils behaviour management with you or your child. Your child was probably just trying to deflect the attention onto someone else. If you went home and ranted about the teacher rather than dealing with your son, you've done exactly that.

I think you've had some pretty harsh responses here. Children hear swear words in playgrounds and streets, especially from children who have siblings at senior school. My dd heard plenty from kids in her class with older siblings. She is my eldest so she wasn't hearing them at home or on TV.

That's beside the point here though. It sounds to me as if the other children have found a way to press your son's buttons and he rewards them every time by getting angry and swearing and then he gets in to trouble for it.

It's a very subtle form of bullying and my dd was subjected to it for years. Her reaction was to cry which garnered her zero sympathy from teachers and more than one telling off for being so "emotional". The fact that she was being teased and provoked every day was totally under the radar.

My daughter was crying in frustration and anger. I took her to a kidscape course which was an absolute godsend. They gave her strategies to deal with the bullying from the other children, she started writing a journal to release all her pent up anger and frustration. No more crying at school all day every day. Suddenly she was no fun to taunt anymore and the other kids lost interest in trying to wind her up.

We had precisely zero success in trying to get the school to address the other children's behaviour. They didn't acknowledge that she was being bullied at all.

My advice to you is to talk to your son and try to establish why he's so angry. I would hazard a guess that there is at least one child, if not several, who go out of their way to provoke him each and every day.

No matter what the cause though, your son needs to find more constructive ways to deal with his anger because his current strategy results in him being told off and being in trouble. That's the best thing you can do for him. Find out why he's angry and give him better ways to deal with it.

My dd used to go into the girls toilets and just yell really loudly (when no one else was there obviously).

hth

Your son sounds like an utter nightmare to teach and to have in the class. One child can disrupt the whole learning experience for the other 29 children. Get a grip. Punish him. Yes horrible to hear your son being described as a "little shit" but she was having a private conversation. You can't control that or change it.

It's not at all clear whether your child is really the problem or whether he's responding to bullying, facilitated by the teacher. I'm astonished so many people are excusing her behaviour. To vent is one thing, but she's clearly gone way past that. The psycho reference? That's arguably a threat. Tell the headteacher and consider moving school. There may be a bigger problem here where your child is becoming an easy target. Or there may be an issue with his behaviour. The bigger picture needs to be looked at by the headteacher.

I think this should be your wake up call, I know a few parents like yourself who blame their DC behaviour at school on teachers, other kids, some threatening to change schools, because they have been told their child is disruptive, and basically being a little sod.
It is hard to hear that your child isn't behaving well at school, and you want your child to be liked by teachers and other children.
But if a teacher is having to shout 'get out of my classroom" his behaviour must be horrendous.
I was called into school once as my DD kept flashing her knickers (don't laugh), but she would do it ALL the time to get laughs and it became disruptive.
The teachers had a word with me and she was banned from going to her dance classes for a week, no sweets over the weekend, and she wasn't allowed to stay up later over the weekend. And do you know what she never did it again (she was 5 at the time).
I have never had a teacher have to have a word with me since. Because my DD knows that bad behaviour at school have serious consequences at home.
If you want this to stop, you need to start listening to the teachers and do something about it at home.
He is probably playing up at school cause he knows you won't do anything about it, he gets to mess about at school and then come home and still do everything he loves to do with no consequences.
I hope you get this sorted and start working with the teachers rather than against them.

YANBU

All children have teachers, parents and problems. Growing up has to be managed. When one child behaves differently from the rest, they need more attention. Simple.

I would not be happy thinking my child's teacher cannot accept this simple truth but instead, labels him a shit for having normal developmental issues. I don't think you can write to the head about it, but you can write to the teacher and invite her to explain why your son can't rely on her to work together with you to get him over this hurdle.

School is not supposed to be a jungle, it's the place you send your kids to learn. Attitude to learning is a big part of this. While they are not supposed to be kids' parents, they, surely, have to play their part in the jigsaw puzzle of getting the child through.

recent posters please see OP's update on Thurs 5 May 15:50.

She has a private, frustrated conversation and unfortunately you overheard. She is human! Can you imagine how hard it is to contain a class of 8 year olds with your swearing, shouting son in the mix? And actually do some teaching. (Pehaps if you had more respect for the teacher your son would too.)

Your DS needs to learn about respect and self control under provocation before he is old enough to get into serious trouble. NOW is your chance - in a few years he will not be listening to you. Get the school on board and deal with your son's behaviour together - it is in everyone's best interest.

Here is the latest post from the op yesterday

Hi all, just a quick update in case anyone's watching. I had a real heart to heart with DS this morning, and he has agreed that he has been rude. I'm going to ask after him daily and if it's a good day, he'll be allowed his internet time, if not he won't. We'll see how that goes.
I've ordered that explosive child book.

I had a meeting with teacher after school today. I asked what she was doing in class, we talked and she is going to start a daily log book. She was very smiley. I had a quick word alone too and just mentioned that she needs to be more careful with her rants after school as anybody could be listening. She started to panic and apologise, but I just told her to stop and we'd start on a clean page from now on. I don't want it to be a source of tension.

Hopefully things will start to move up.

Anyway I won't be on the thread any more, but thank you for constructive replies.

Imaginosity –I LOVE this approach! I am going to implement the very same thing once my little girl starts school next year. Thanks for sharing it!

Write down what happened and share in a private email with the head and governors.

Id be horrified. I am horrified. That exchange wasn't one you should have heard, but you did! Do not tell your child whatever you do, or else his relationship will be entirely shot with his teacher.
I would speak directly to the head. That language is entirely unprofessional, what if a child- your child or indeed any other child overheard that?
There is certainly a privacy/ data issue there given his name was mentioned. I don't care what your child did, said or how they behaved, kids are kids and yes sometimes they do behave badly and even swear. Have a stern word/ many words of course with him, but show that you are a better than the teachers and deal with this professionally. Good luck :)

Your son's behaviour sounds appalling. The fact you don't believe in punishing a child twice for the same thing speaks volumes. I'm not surprised the teacher said what she did. It would be good if you listened to what the teacher said instead of being annoyed. Sort your son out or he is going to have a miserable time in school.

falange mate, RTFT!

Teachers are human too. Remember, she has spent all day dealing with this behavior and having to pacify other parents. Swearing in school, talking back and being rude are unacceptable. Why does he think this is ok? The teacher is probably at her wits end. It's unfortunate that you heard that, but making light of it is probably the alternative to having a weep. The other member of staff was obviously aware of the behavior anyway. Just the equivalent of gallows humor. A way of coping with exasperating behavior. A break down in the relationship with the teacher would be the most unhelpful outcome. I think you need to put the overheard conversation out of your mind as best you can. Ask for a meeting with the teacher. Say that you are finding this difficult and that obviously, what your both doing is not working. Ask if you and she can come up with a united front style system which is mutually supportive to combat the behavior.

I think the frank conversation you overheard is the one youshould listen to.
Teachers have to tipptoe around us these days, not allowed tosay 'your son is a bloody nightmare' anymore... but tbh it sounds like he is.

Check out Empowering Parents website on kids that blame others... very very helpful (my son does this, always says 'he was annoying me' when he gets in trouble for having a go at someone.
Really important to teach them to take responsibility for their own actions, and also to learn to let 'annoying people' wash over them rather than react every time.

Really hard struggled with my son for years with this from about age 8-12.
I learned not to sympathise... that line 'we are talking about your behaviour, not theirs' is key.

I printed out a saying and framed it by his desk.. 'You don't have to turn up for everywar you are invited to'. Kinda helping.
I think they do grow out of this but don't you feed into it by sympathising when he says: "But 'Tom' was really annoying me!". There will be Tom's in every field of life... he HAS to learn not to react and let it wash over him.

As for the teacher, I don't blame her at all... (pretty sure they all talk like this behind our backs, let's not be naiive)
She sounds at her wits end. I'd maybe ask to see her on your own and tell her you overheard her, ask her to be honest about how bad the issue is and ask her for advice maybe?
I'd take it as a learning moment and focus on your son.

The teacher would be mortified if she knew you heard her & would obviously be sorry. I would speak to her rather than the head.
Some children are more challenging than others, however you parent them. As parents, we just have to our best. Children may protest, but most actually like discipline & to know where the boundaries are.
For those who think that their 8 year old doesn't know what a swear word is, you're kidding yourselves! I'm a primary school teacher in a leafy village school & you would be surprised what pops out of the children's mouth!

(Just read the update... well done you!)

I'm pleasantly surprised by the number of comments which are sympathetic to the teacher . Do not be surprised that in private conversations teachers deal with the frustrations in their job by venting in this way . On the other hand they also talk privately about how really lovely some of their students are .
It's way too easy to lose sight of issues with our children by focussing on shortcomings in teachers . I know because I've done it myself and as a teacher I knew just where the shortcomings were . But I regret it now . You have a right to feel angry but don't let it blind you to the fact that you have a job of work to do with your child . And maybe you can start to build a partnership with the teacher because when we work together ....it works .
Good luck