To be furious with this teacher.

[AlarmBells]

Sorry this is a bit long but I need a rant!

So, but of background, ds who's 8 has had a difficult relationship with school. We've been in a few times to talk about behaviour. (Attitude, talking back, arguing in class)

Every time we've been in I've tried my best to be supportive. I don't agree with punishing children twice for offenses, but I have a stern talk with him when we get home and we talk about what's triggering it, and how me and the teacher can help him.

We were called in again today, another frustrating session. Apparently DS swore and shouted at a boy in class, who (and the teacher admitted it) had been annoying him by sticking his tongue out and making noises at him.

She says he'she's often rude and talks back consistently...he says the other kids in class are always annoying him. I asked what was being done about that and teacher smiled patronisingly, rolled her eyes and said she's had a word with the parents and the children. She then turned to DS and said 'we are talking about YOUR behaviour though' with another smirk.

Anyway, we left, I again promised to talk to DS when home. She saw us to the door. However when she turned back I realised we'd forgotten his book bag, so I caught door as it was closing and nipped back in (DS stayed outside).

I was just outside the class room and heard this exchange.

' Do you have a brick wall I can bag my head against'
'Is it xxxxx again?'
'Oh God, he's just so rude! And his mum thinks he sh*ts gold, that's the problem! He just gets home and whines to mummy he's being picked on and she laps up every word! Funny how he only does that when he gets a bollocking. Little shit'
'What are you going to do?'
'She sounds like she's making screechy sound from psycho, they laugh'.

I quickly and quietly get out, but I'm still fuming. Totally unprofessional, yes? I know they thought I was out the building, but still. I now know a few things:

1. She has talked about my son like this before.
   
2. she refers to children as 'little shits'
   
3. She is completely two faced
   
4. she has no regards for ds's feelings during all this.
   
   What's my next move? Feeling distraught. May email head tonight/ tommorow morning.

[Italiangreyhound]

Munchingmummy you are totally right '...another parent or child could have overheard those comments' or the OP's son could have heard those comments.

I have never spoken about a colleague, student or other person in those terms and the very idea that that kind of talk is OK because it was happening in the staff room is ridiculous.

But Munchingmummy, just so you know, the op said pages ago she wasn't coming back, and she gave an update which sounded very positive. I think it is on page 17.

Re " Perhaps it's time to start thinking of him making a better impression next year." it's quite curious you are thinking about the boy's 'better impression'. I would agree if you said better behaviour. I think the teacher might need to think about the impression she is creating!

Re "Regarding the teachers comments - she sounds frustrated to me, which is understandable, she's only human after all."

I am always amazed that an adult reacting in an inappropriate or unpleasant way to negative stimulus (a child swearing, all be it a lot) is only human and frustrated, but a child reacting in an inappropriate or unpleasant way to negative stimulus (a child sticking his tongue out at him, , all be it a lot - or a lot of children doing it) does not get the 'only human and frustrated' option.

[Hairyspiderinyourunderwear]

Math, we didn't punish DS about school problems on the whole, we empathized and told him it must really suck to miss out and have to sit outside the head's office when his friends were in class. We told him if he acted the way he needed to then he would spend more time doing what he wanted and less with mum being called to school which he found embarrassing. I believe that it is in DS' best interest to understand it benefits him when he behaves appropriately, much more so than to punish him. Now not that we don't ever punish. He missed several homeworks lately so he has no phone or iPod until he can show he has talked to his teacher about it and has turned several in on time with a good score.

In his case the key was for a classroom assistant to take him and the other three or four loose cannons outside to run up and down the outside school stairs for a few minutes. It worked so well that they implemented it in all the classes and everyone in class got a lot more done. They could have punished him for the misbehaviour like flicking things across the room and wasting time goofing around but this worked a lot better and took up much less staff time.

[LarrytheCucumber]

lem how is he now?

[mathanxiety]

Rollinginthevalley, I agree with you.

Hairyspider, I also agree with you, but I feel that in this case there is a parent who doesn't believe in punishing twice and appears to have a sentimental approach to discipline. Children are always works in progress, but parents need to be doing some of the work.

[Munchingmummy]

OP, I can see both sides of I'm being honest.

I do think that you are being a bit unrealistic about what's going on. Putting this particular teachers comments aside, how will ensure that this doesn't continue to happen? It won't be long before they break up for summer. Perhaps it's time to start thinking of him making a better impression next year.

Regarding the teachers comments - she sounds frustrated to me, which is understandable, she's only human after all. Having said that, if I were in your shoes I would be concerned that another parent or child could have over heard those comments, instead of you. Would this encourage other parents/child to also have him pegged as a bad child (although if what you yourself say is true that may already be the case). A conversation like that should be carried out in the staff room, in my opinion. Also, I would worry if this was one of my children that the teacher has developed such a negative attitude towards him, that now even if he does nothing wrong the finger would be pointed at him. I would probably contact the headteacher because I really believe in what they say about thoughts becoming words, then actions etc.


Seems like you both may need to take a fresh look at the situation.

[lem73]

Omg Larry I have had an almost identical experience as you with ds1, even regarding the teacher who knew how to get the best out of them. As a learning support assistant, I actually find helping 'little shits' progress the most satisfying part of my job .

[MissSeventies]

OP I do not think you are being unreasonable. To those who said she "should not have continued to eavesdrop" I think you are being unfair, I think it was quite clear from the post that she accidentally overheard when returning for the book bag.

The teacher calling a child a "little shit" whether true or otherwise is beyond unacceptable. Bad kids are still just kids. We are talking about a child being cheeky and swearing not a child hitting the teacher or other children. TBH the teacher's comments would raise concerns for me her capability or willingness to effectively manage the situation. If the behavior is to be improved the teacher has to be fully committed to her part in resolving it. That does not seem to be the case here. She seems to expect the parent to sort the whole thing out and deliver a reformed child by Monday morning. If not she results to insults.

[notonthebandwagon]

^^

This

[Hairyspiderinyourunderwear]

Clam, Dr Greene's clinical observations are that kids do well when they can, if they are not doing well there is a problem that needs fixing and when it is fixed they prefer to do well. Whether that is an undiagnosed special need or lack of maturity or that they have a low tolerance to frustration or just that they haven't been taught it is in their best interest to behave doesn't really matter. There is a problem and it needs fixing and it has been shown over and over that the best way is not to punish but to fix it and for everyone working together to do it. Blaming a parent is probably the best way to make sure that everyone doesn't work together on it.

[notonthebandwagon]

I didn't suspect until my son was 9 and it was due to repeat incidents at school.

[clam]

If the OP suspected her ds had SN, and has been trying to get the school to look at him to no avail, then your cases might be relevant. But she's not. She, and her son actually, agree that his behaviour has been out of order.

Although I'm a bit at the "she only gave him one warning" before sending him out. So he was badly behaved, got a warning, and then he repeated it, but the OP thought he should be able to behave badly a third time?? (and yes, I know she's conceded the general point about his behaviour).

[notonthebandwagon]

My child had SN too - autism.

He continually slipped through the school's non-existent safety net.

It took me two years and via our GO because the school thought they new best to get his diagnosis.

I took great joy in e-mailing his former HT with the confirmation.

[Hairyspiderinyourunderwear]

and as I said, my son did have special needs that made him look like a badly behaved child. It took many years and a staff member that was unwilling to let it go even after we had given up to get to the bottom of it. In the year since he was diagnosed he has done a 180 turn around in both behaviour and attainment. It isn't a bad question.

Nonetheless, even if it is a badly behaved child who doesn't have any special needs, it is still more productive to address the issues and teach better behaviour and reward that than it is to simply write him off as a little shit.

[clam]

Lalista: Is there any chance that he has a minor learning difficulty? Have you considered taking him to a paediatric occupational therapist?

[Hairyspiderinyourunderwear]

"Why does someone always pop up with a suggestion of special needs or learning difficulties? The OP said right from the start there were none.
Bottom line is, there are loads of kids out there who are quite simply badly behaved. Searching for excuses for them does no one any favors."

I didn't suggest this child has special needs, I said that the reason my child was behaving badly was because he had undiagnosed special needs at that point that looked like he was simply badly behaved.

The solution was not punishing him for bad behaviour (although there were some definite consequences of his behaviour such as being sent home from a four day camp) it was to address the reason for the bad behaviour and teach him better behaviour. It simply is more effective and less frustrating for everyone involved. This is true whether it is undiagnosed special needs or if it is bad behaviour.

[LarrytheCucumber]

Speaking as the parent of a former 'little ' I found some teachers were quick to blame us for his behaviour, despite all our best efforts to make him conform. I remember one dreadful half term when we put him on a regime of 'I say jump, you say how high'. We did everything we could think of over a period of years. I would not be at all surprised if his teachers had conversations as described in the OP. But in the end we were not there with him in the classroom. The teacher who had the most success with him instigated a reward chart for good behaviour and was fair but firm. She also saw something in him that she liked and capitalised on that.
Yes it is possible the OP could do more to back up the school, but maybe the school need a different approach too.
I am at posters who think their children don't know swearwords. My DS learnt a wonderful vocabulary of swearwords in year 3 from other children in his class.

[morningtoncrescent62]

Just read the first couple of pages and the update on p17. Well done, OP, for stepping up to the plate - I hope it goes well and that you and the teacher together are able to address your DS's behaviour.

[clam]

Why does someone always pop up with a suggestion of special needs or learning difficulties? The OP said right from the start there were none.

Bottom line is, there are loads of kids out there who are quite simply badly behaved. Searching for excuses for them does no one any favours.

[Littleallovertheshop]

OP you've handled it amazingly. I think you got a pretty hard time on this thread but you've taken it on board.
I think letting the teacher know you heard and not taking it further was both the best thing to do and magnanimous of you - she could have been in a lot of trouble.
Well done, faith in AIBU restored!

[Miniminimus]

Sorry, I have read first few pages and skipped to last so apologies if repeating.

My DS had low level disruptive behaviour all through primary and secondary. We felt we had firm boundaries at home (2 other DC were fine) but found we spent every parents evening discussing behavior rather than progress. Sometimes he would do things that absolutely flabbergasted us (not violence or swearing but just things that were out of kilter with the situation and we were called in to talk about them). We always supported any sanctions or reward schemes. At the end of each year each class teacher said something was still not quite right but the head refused to do any assessment for SEN as 'he is not violent or the worst we have at school'. He implied that the issues were solely down to parenting. If I had my time again I would have pushed harder for assessment or support right back at primary because 12 years of this are exhausting for all! I echo posters suggesting you firm things up at home but also ask school for a clear action plan. Then ask for escalation if things do not improve within a term. Some schools have people in post to deal with this, some refer to local authority teams/behaviour support, some schools, (like ours and maybe yours) just leave it to each class teacher and it never gets dealt with and school is a wasted opportunity. If school won't help, please try your GP. If anger issues are involved (particularly if you have other children), they can refer to paediatric assessment and support groups for parents.

I hope you get this sorted early on OP. I sure your DS has lots to offer in class once this is tackled as a behaviour issue with the right support in place.

[Kisathecat]

All the replies seem to indicate that you are in the wrong. If it's any consolation I don't think it's appropriate that a teacher would talk about a child like that. I would hope that teachers are better than that, but sadly they are not. I would also hope that people would have more compassion for a child of 8 years old who is being picked on, to what extent who knows? He seems to be pretty frustrated by it and is doing his best to stand up for himself. It's probably important that you get him to tell you exactly what is going on, boys do find it hard to really open up about these things. School doesn't suit all kids and you have to decide whether your son is going to thrive in this kind of environment. There are other options in the nature of homeschooling, see if you can find any groups in your area where you can get help and support.

[passremarkable]

Just saw your update page 17.

That sounds like a really good start to mending fences. I hope it works out for you.

[passremarkable]

Alarm bells I'm sorry it was horrible to hear but YABU
I'm wondering if he's well behaved for you at home or if your turning a blind eye to things at home perhaps because you feel a bit lost as to how to cope with it.

i know he I know he must be a pain in class sometimes
You recognise his bad behaviour- you need to make sure he knows that you find it unacceptable & that there will be consequences at home.

he's never violent
This is not the ringing endorsement of an angelic child. By the time his behaviour degenerates into violence it will be much harder for you to change. It would be appropriate for the school to bring in outside enforcement like police for violence. You don't want it to get to this?

You say the teacher screeched at him- this is the story of a rude, sweating 8 year old- not something you've witnessed?

She tells him to leave the classroom after only on warning
That's absolutely correct of her. He should know at home too that if he is disobedient, rude or badly behaved then you give one warning, & if he does it again then there are consequences.

You could warn him now if he's:
-badly behaved at school one more time

• swears
  
• doesn't make bed
  
• doesn't do chores you've asked him
  

there will be e.g.
No TV for a week... ( for intermediate problems)
No pocket money for a month (for serious misdemeanours like swearing in school)
No pudding (for more minor crimes like bed making)

If he fails to respond or does behaviour again then it's 2 weeks & so on.

It's tough love and not easy to deliver but your son will be a better young man for it.

I still think super nanny episodes are an excellent resource for learning how to discipline without losing your cool. It's aimed at younger kids but the principles are the same.

Good luck.

[echt]

See page 17.

[echt]

jamdonut, reading the thread does help. The OP has posted an update since her original OP, and really doesn't need this need this.