To be furious with this teacher.

[AlarmBells]

Sorry this is a bit long but I need a rant!

So, but of background, ds who's 8 has had a difficult relationship with school. We've been in a few times to talk about behaviour. (Attitude, talking back, arguing in class)

Every time we've been in I've tried my best to be supportive. I don't agree with punishing children twice for offenses, but I have a stern talk with him when we get home and we talk about what's triggering it, and how me and the teacher can help him.

We were called in again today, another frustrating session. Apparently DS swore and shouted at a boy in class, who (and the teacher admitted it) had been annoying him by sticking his tongue out and making noises at him.

She says he'she's often rude and talks back consistently...he says the other kids in class are always annoying him. I asked what was being done about that and teacher smiled patronisingly, rolled her eyes and said she's had a word with the parents and the children. She then turned to DS and said 'we are talking about YOUR behaviour though' with another smirk.

Anyway, we left, I again promised to talk to DS when home. She saw us to the door. However when she turned back I realised we'd forgotten his book bag, so I caught door as it was closing and nipped back in (DS stayed outside).

I was just outside the class room and heard this exchange.

' Do you have a brick wall I can bag my head against'
'Is it xxxxx again?'
'Oh God, he's just so rude! And his mum thinks he sh*ts gold, that's the problem! He just gets home and whines to mummy he's being picked on and she laps up every word! Funny how he only does that when he gets a bollocking. Little shit'
'What are you going to do?'
'She sounds like she's making screechy sound from psycho, they laugh'.

I quickly and quietly get out, but I'm still fuming. Totally unprofessional, yes? I know they thought I was out the building, but still. I now know a few things:

1. She has talked about my son like this before.
2. she refers to children as 'little shits'
3. She is completely two faced
4. she has no regards for ds's feelings during all this.

What's my next move? Feeling distraught. May email head tonight/ tommorow morning.

Now that I am a retired teacher:

1. We see little shits and their shitty behaviour daily.

• we vent about it in the staffroom as we feel the need to blurt, get some support in the couple of minutes we have before hopping off to the next class - where the next/same little shit may wait!

1. We can detest said little shit and their shitty behaviour and still keep our professionzl heads on, not letting it show through

• trust me, this is done a lot. Many of said little shits do grow up and become lovely young people. As teachers we see it over and over again... we cope (just!) The worst little shit I ever taught was a nasty foul mouthed young man, argumentative and plain bullish. 3 years on and he is lovely, I see him every week where he works (with the public) and he has apologised for his foul temper and mouth, back then

1. If as a parent you ever stand by a staffroom door and listen you will ALWAYS here some of the staff venting, swearing, bitching and genereally moaning. It is the space we have during a stress filled day where we can relax our hyper vigilant always switched on niceness... what you will hear is a fleeting momnet of psychic balm in a harrassed and harried day - we don't have time for MN or other socail media, so must vent in passing!

1. If, as a parent, you are always hearing that your child is being rude, argumenttive and you focus on the words your kid uses to describe the teacher when they try to calm things down, if you hear the terms "eye rolling, patronising smirk" your child is channelling you! Few children use such terms about adults, they are peer to peer phrases. You are making excuses for your child who is currently begaving like a little shit.

If you parent him right, he may not be next year!

Oh, and you know what they say: Eavesdroppers never hear any good of themselves!

Sorry italian. I think I've lost the the thread of who has said what on this thread!

Apologies for all the mispers... there seems to be a typing delay on this pad!

Echt, 'no', it was not a 'private' setting, it was the workplace and in a professional workplace you're expected to behave like a professional, otherwise more fool you!
You're spectacularly missing the point as is snoringlittlemonkey, the 'language' is dreadful whatever context but particular worrying when expressed by a teacher, one you entrust the care of your child with. To you it seems being a professional is about a 'subterfuge' not 'substance' - heard of the these things called 'ethics'? Is an outstanding teacher or even a good teacher one somebody that just employs subterfuge to get through the week.

I think we've moved on from the medieval 'shame' to the family days snoringlittlemonkey (Head in hands).

Sorry, haven't read the full thread, but just wanted to suggest something constructive that really worked for my son, who was about the same age when he was having terrific trouble at school. He was really unsettled and sad because of my divorce and was very disruptive. The teachers worked out a system where he'd get traffic lights for his behaviour through the day, and I linked this to Minecraft time at home - eg any red traffic lights, no Minecraft at all, each green light was 10 mins of play, that kind of thing. It meant I knew what he was up to at school and could reinforce the need for good behaviour at home. Obviously you'd adapt it to anything that your son's really into.

The good thing about is was that I was working with the school and supporting the teachers in an obvious way - I think it's helpful for children of that age if all the adults in their lives basically agree - but it didn't involve much "telling off" at home as such, just clear consequences for behaviour, so everyone knew where they were. It took a while, but it helped everyone, not least him. He's fine now!

Being a parent to kids having trouble at school is really hard. Consistency and holding the line is key I think.

Blanche how would you feel aboout your overhearing your GP talking about you in those terms? Would you be happy to go back and see him? Who you trust him?

I bet you wouldn't and in my mind this is no different. I would struggle;e to trust a teacher that is talking in that way about me and my DC.

And believe me, there are plenty of patients that are bloody annoying too. But if you start looking at them as being annoying/bad/whatever word you want to use as a person, there is no way you will actually deal with them appropriately. Even if you try and hide your feelings, even if you don't use these swear words in front of them, it will come out.
Just as it will come out on your behaviour towards the children in class.
That's psychology for you and why it is so important to always focus on behaviour rather than the person.

If you think that you could hide it well enough, then I'm afraid you are deluded. (Talking from experience there btw)

herecomethepotatoes If you cannot see the difference between talking at private party and talking on school premises seconds after a parent leaves the room I am not sure I can really explain that to you.

I am well aware children can be difficult, hard, awful etc etc and teaching is a very hard job and should be well rewarded and well supported.

But just because someone is a teacher doesn't mean they are always right.

I said "So are you saying the teacher may be lying, but that is still OK is it?

You said "Yes. If the teacher doesn't believe the other children are doing anything wrong then it was a simpler response than "no comment"."

Re "She said " He just gets home and whines to mummy he's being picked on and she laps up every word!". To me, laps it up means believes him even though he isn't telling the truth."

But we have just established by your own words it doesn't matter if she (teacher) is telling the truth!

It sounds to me like the teacher hasn't engaged properly with parent or child. I think that once we start to automatically believe teachers, even if they are lying, and automatically don't believe kids, even if they might be telling the truth the 'moral high ground' has become the moral low ground.

If we assume children are lying and it's not OK and we assume if a teacher is lying it is OK then I guess there is no point in my debating this further.

OP I do hope this has helped you somewhat and I hope you will find a way to help things to get better.

ok you aren't a bad parent but having worked in schools they honestly nearly always see a different side to children to what parents see. You would be amazed how many parents DO think their little darlings are being picked on when actually their child has them wrapped around their little finger.

The teacher wasn't talking about you or your child to another parent, they weren't putting it on the internet, they were letting off steam to a colleague.

I doubt there are many people in the world, whatever job they do, who haven't had a moan about a patient, a pupil, a client, a customer.... we are all only human.

You weren't supposed to be in the building, she had shown you to the door, really you ought to have rung the bell before going back in or called after her that you needed to come back in to alert her.

If you contact the head to complain about her actions then all you are doing is putting yourself in the wrong.

Hard as it is to hear her opinion of your child, she probably is at the end of her tether and it sounds like he is being particularly awful and disrespectful.

I also am a retired teacher and i do not agree with your description of staff rooms OB.Do you think students and their parents are so stupid that they cannot see thru your 'switched on niceness" ?

FlyingScotsman- I'm guessing people don't generally swear and abuse other people in their GP's surgery while the GP is nominally in charge.

What s silly comparison.

FlyingScotsman that's OK, it's a busy thread!

People swear everywhere, all over the place. This is what is so weird when people say I don't know where he has heard it.

The point about the GP is that a patient only needs to be difficult to fit the example, difficult child - swearing in class, we don't know how often or how badly (NOT defending swearing at all)... difficult patient - gets meds confused, doesn't understand what is said, keeps coming back because of this or that illness that the GP doesn't feel is 'real'. Would the GP be justified in sitting in his or her office and saying what the teacher said?

It just goes to how we view other people., how we talk about them etc. What we do in private reflects what we think and feel. How we think and feel must 'sometimes' affect how we behave, or we would be robots surely?

Ourblanche, teachers do let off steam. However, I haven't come across kids being widely discussed in the classroom as 'little shits'. I've often come across frustrated discussions about particular children. Often the discussions centre on the child's behaviour, the behaviour of the teacher, behavioural strategies, additional needs etc.

The kid is only 8. For whatever reason, it sounds to me like he is struggling in the classroom setting. That could be a heck of a lot more complex than just growing out of being 'a little shit.'

Most of us would be mortified if our child was swearing and being disruptive.
But instead of parent blaming, where is the support and plan and action here?
Often in schools no support is offered to SN children. But by gove, , once a child becomes a problem to a TEACHER, all hell breaks loose and there's no end of support.

Even if a child ISN'T 'Special Needs', Teacher could have talked to senco, put in place the equivalent of an IEP, with strategies and goals, and asked OP to come in and discuss.

Said what teacher saw as the issues and what she was suggesting and asked mum to comply/support.

What are his academic levels? Is he struggling in anything? Friendships? Theory of mind or working memory issues? Or is it just answering back and being disruptive?
Why were the other children goading him? Yes the dawn Hueber etc to deal with that, but also to look at what is really going on here?

Op said she was asked to come in AGAIN. So, previously, what strategies have been put in place? Where's the monitoring and review?

Or no. Let's not bother. With that 'little shit'!

You should have stood there till they saw you then just walked away without saying a word.

Can you send him in with some form of recording device so you can see what's being said and done before he retaliates?

'Switching on the niceness'? Is that what all teachers now do? I sincerely hope not.

Alarm bells, what did you do?

Did you send an email? I would (IMHO) personally speak to the teacher in private and not go through the head/speak with the head present. The head being present might only exacerbate the situation and also the teacher might deny or minimize it e.g. 'I can't remember exactly what I said/I am not sure I used those words etc.'

I hope you are feeling better today.

You are, and will always be 'on his side' being firm and strict doesn't go against that- it actively supports it. He needs to be able to work hard at school, and make friends or at least get on with other children into society.

In the not so distant future he will be expected to live independently, holding down a job, a relationship and a social life. The vast majority of people will aim for these things and will need them in order to feel happy and fulfilled.

To give him his best chance you must look more clearly and critically at his behaviour, for his benefit he's a child and is relying on you to guide him.

OK... overheard is the key term, Scotsman. I don't lurk... and if I did and heard something negative I woulddo what all teachers do with negative feedback... reflect worry about it in the early hours of a few mornings, feeeling vaguely nauseous!

As for not being abe to hide it in the classroom, you'd be utterly surprised at how convincing an actor every good teacher is. The ones who are no good at acting tend to leave quite quickly! I do focus on behaviour - mine first! If, when confronted by a difficult child, I act as though I am in control, I act as though nothing is beyond me... the psychology of behaviour means that that act soon becomes my reality... and so I can teach every little shit as though they are my favourite students!

Same science, slightly different application - guess what I used to teach

Emily I used little shit as that is what OP said, I have used all sorts of epithets. I like to vary my insults. And whilst said 8 year old has a parent who is looking for external causation, nothing the school puts in place will help all that much. There has to be agreement between all adults. OP didn't seem all that willing!

Obs yes, switching it on! Or do you think teachers are all born with a never ending stream of patience, smiliness and ll round goodness? You'd be unusual here on MN! Sometimes it is a struggle and you have to make a conscious effort to turn it all on! Why does that give you the heebies? Have you never felt like not going into work?

Op said she was asked to come in AGAIN. So, previously, what strategies have been put in place? Where's the monitoring and review?

That's exactly what a lot of us been wondering, but as I said we weren't there so can't possibly know

As I mentioned upthread, IME it would be very unusual for the teacher to have made no suggestions, but again we won't know unless the OP comes back to tell us

We can detest said little shit and their shitty behaviour and still keep our professionzl heads on, not letting it show through trust me, this is done a lot

Sad, coming from a teacher.
A child is not a little shit. They may sometimes or many times display shitty behaviour, which is different.
If you label a child a little shit,..then your attitude WILL show through. Kids are not stupid and teachers who do this are kidding themselves if they think a child cannot tell you 'detest' them.
Your professionalism falls down the minute you say a child is a little shit.

Fair enough Gotta. If that were all that was happening when a teacher puts on the 'act'

But it isn't. The comments about acting and psychology refer to a form of cognitive restructuring, 're-thinking', like CBT and, as many people know, CBT works. Many people who deal with the public practice deliberately 'putting on a happy face', whether they know it or not.

Oh OP....

Parents like you and kids like yours are the reason I don't teach anymore!

I feel sorry for the other children in the class.
They have no choice but to put up with this boy's behaviour. In their eyes why should they behave well when he is just allowed to get away with it?

I work in a nursery and from what I see is your main problem is you're trying too much to be his friend. To show him you're his number one fan but you also need too balance the mothering role. I had parents in nursery upset as to why there child behaves for us and not for them or why does there child act out. The answer is they're scared there child won't love them or be there friend for saying NO. He's at an age where you can nip this in the bud, because if he continues he will make a rod for his own back and every teacher will just presume he's a little shit. Don't be afraid to say No , don't be afraid to punish accordingly. Remember you are the ADULT he is the CHILD. The worst that will happen when you tell him to stop playing up is sulk and ignore for a few hours. Honestly work on this now before he is a teenager. I wish you luck!