To worry I've turned into the attachment mum horror

[ASAS]

So, as a seasoned MNer I'm asking you lovely lot to judge me as tbh I know I'll get the truth.

My DS. Darling Son. Without droning on we attachment parent because honestly I just assumed that's what everyone was doing, comfort him when he cries, let him explore, respond to his cues etc etc. I just thought that's how we (all parents) did it. I kind of still do as I genuinely rarely see a shouty mum, we're all quite new age and chilled aren't we?! Anyway, that was background to let you know I don't see my parenting as that unusual.

My son is now 4 and wonderful. Me, however, not so wonderful after the following happened. Please hand me grip if you feel it's needed...

In church this morning a woman in front of me, who I didn't recognise, turned to me and said, "Have some respect. Sit your child on your knee." For context we'd moved pews next to a toddler he loves to play with. My son and the toddler were not making any noise but were walking (within arms reach). I was so ashamed that I picked up my son, and spent the rest of the service on steps outside.

I love church. It might as well be a spa day for how good it is for me, and everyone is always so lovely to my son. Afterwards the toddlers mum came and found me in the playroom and was a bit lost too but it was me not her the woman spoke to.

Yes, he's wild and I'm crunchy. But he's also so lovely that he asked if he could take the box of donuts he earned as a reward to church this morning to share with everyone, unprompted. He's not naughty, just 4. But is that me being a defensive attachment parent with a pfb?

So go on. Have I done this totally wrong?

Oh I just realised this thread isn't about me being a crunchy but about the OP.

TBH OP I don't think it's very crunchy to go to church at all. What with Christianity being so monotheistic and all. Have you tried Paganism? But maybe it's the community you're after?

And the woman in front of you was being crusty not crunchy to say what she said cos whilst everyone may think other people's kids are PITAs they're not really supposed to say it.

If I described my child as "wild" he'd be doing a bit more than having an impromptu wander down the aisle. To me wild = undisciplined & without boundaries. Is it possible that his behaviour is perceived as slightly less delightful by others?

Weird.

I think the point is that churches are supposed to be welcoming to everybody and therefore everybody in the church should be welcoming and considerate towards everybody else.

A certain type of parent seems to have mistaken welcoming everybody with 'welcoming me and my children and tolerating everything we wish to do whilst we extend no toleration to or consideration to others. That isn't welcoming everybody, it's privileging one groups wish to behave as they please above the needs of all other worshippers in the church.

Welcoming and consideration is a two way street. That's why distracting your children with books or small non-noisy toys, bringing a few snacks, not minding very little ones having a small wander and needing to go out is fine. But running wild around a church, making excessive noise, moving around during a service to facilitate play, not even trying to minimise disruption are not fine. That crosses the line into making the church an unwelcoming place for those who wish to pay attention to the service and actually do some worship.

Parents who just allow their children free reign in church but insist on their right to be welcomed and tolerated when they do so are bloody hypocrites. Because they don't extend the same courtesy to others.

By all means expect little old ladies to understand we don't live in the 1950s and children aren't expected to sit in absolute silence and stock still for an hour, but at the same time recognise that they haven't signed up to a playgroup experience and do what you can to minimise disruption from your little darlings.

Depends on the church. Some churches don't mind children playing wandering, others playing quietly, and some are in the children must be seen and not heard camp.

From what you said, if he was playing nicely, and within arms reach, then that sounds fine. If he has always done this, and the church leaders are fine, then that's fine.

(Sorry for the over use of fine)
(Sorry, just saw how long thread is. Haven't read whole thread)

How on earth does a four year old win a reward of a box of donuts?

FWIW I think you are taking everything including your parenting 'style' a bit too seriously. You like going to church, the other lady does too. You and your son have to just accept you simply can't have everyone's approval all the time.

Oh dear. A bit of unpleasantness here.
My daughter is 4, and perfectly capable of choosing to have her birthday parties in the church, what with being a person, and having a brain, and all. Similarly she's perfectly capable of choosing not to have a faith, or any interest in church, right now, or later, or at any point in her life. Her choice.
The questions I would ask anyone objecting to children enjoying, and feeling comfortable in, church, are:
A) which bit of the Gospelsq did you read which said it behoved children to sit quietly and be seen and not heard, and that that would be spiritually instructive to them, and,
B) how does this attitude help to grow God's kingdom?

Sorry, sounded a bit annoyed (and mildly illiterate) in my last post.
But honestly, for the love of God (really, honestly), let's stop worrying about how children behave in church- rather, the question we need to ask is, are our churches places children might actually want to go? Do they understand what is said, learn from it, enjoy it? If not, then what happens in the future? Surely this has to be a concern of every Christian? What sort of Christian would want to sit, enjoying their own worship experience, caring nothing for the future of the church?

Amazed so many people hadn't heard the word "crunchy". One of the few expressions that hasn't really hopped the pond then.

it is an american expression. I think it comes from "crunchy granola" to indicate people more likely to be organic/whole foods/hippyish.

I first heard it 17 years ago here in the US when a woman I had become friends with through our kids being at day care together was discussing the daycare and she said "it is great but I wish they were a bit crunchier with the food and snacks" I had to have it explained to me as I thought the goldfish snacks were perfectly crunchy and surely you wanted your children to eat soft food too.

I did the US crunchy test up thread and hilariously my friends would have scored 100 percent on it - right up to not using shampoo on their hair and giving up the car in 2005 (and it was 2005). Maybe they designed the test.

they are lovely though and we had a blast with them when our kids were small. Despite us looking on baffled as they put organic sun screen that didn't work on their kids because of fear of carcinogens (DH did point out that the sun was a known carcinogen as opposed to the unknown - but tested by FDA-ones in sunscreen)

Lovely I think it's more to do with consideration of other people rather than a religious point

Wondering how far the children walked 'within arm's reach' unless bejeaned crunchy mom is Ms Tickle.
Vaara, your church in Fulham sounds great!

Wild and Crunchy muesli does have a good ring to it, yes.

As does Wild and Crunchy granola bars.

Better than stale, week old doughnuts. 🍩

What sort of Christian would want to sit, enjoying their own worship experience, caring nothing for the future of the church?

What sort of Christian would want to sit and watch their children 'enjoying their worship experience' caring nothing about the present of the church and that they were making it an unpleasant experience for other churchgoers?

Nobody is saying children should be non-moving and silent for an hour. But making sure their noise and movement does not get to a level where others cannot hear or concentrate on the service.

If children are running around wildly and playing I would question what sort of 'worship experience' they were having that they couldn't have at soft play too. I'm not really sure what it good it does for the 'future of the church' to raise a generation who see it as nothing more than a social occasion where you turn up to be seen and actually paying any sort of attention to actual worship does anyway.

NotNowNigel, the two can't be divorced, though, I don't think?
The whole point of a religious faith (I think) is about love for others. If one loves the Christian faith, and what is teaches about loving one's neighbour (I.e, everybody) then one (presumably) loves the idea of children having access to these teachings, and maybe living in this way.
Christianity is dying out, in the UK. Many will no doubt see this as a good thing. But for those who don't - who like to worship in churches, so would presumably describe themselves either as Christians,or at least as candid friends of Christianity - surely it is important to create churches where children, and families with small children, feel welcome?
(As it happens, my dd is perfectly behaved within services, by anyone's standards. She only zooms around church when we've got a children's activity going on, or she's in there when I'm doing some work in the church, or something. But even if she wasn't, she'd still be one of God's children. Who are all welcome, be it during services, or whenever. Why shouldn't they treat it like their front room? It's God's house, and therefore, theirs).

loves the idea of children having access to these teachings

Having access to these teaching means actively listening not just being in the area where the teaching is happening but not paying any attention to it whatsoever.

Why shouldn't they treat it like their front room?

God is everywhere. If your children haven't yet learned how to pay attention or have respect, then they could just as well be anywhere. After all God is everywhere right? Not just in the Church/his house.

Is there any point in even responding to this

Any "style" of parenting that has a "title" (one you have to google) is usually about lording it over others and making excuses for why your children behave in a certain way. Does my nut in, can't we just all be "parents" any more?

I also get very annoyed with the "you can't expect a to sit quietly when and not . Our daughter is six, she can't walk. She sits quietly in all sorts of situations, and has done since she was old enough to sit. Sometimes she has a little whinge about being bored, but mostly, she doesn't. How have we managed this miraculous outcome? We include her. We talk to her, we see a visit to a restaurant as a great chance to talk about stuff. We don't go to restaurants far too late, well past the point she is tired. We don't see a meal out as a chance to chat only to our adult companions, or sit staring at our phones, and ignore her. As avid people watchers, we see the same thing, adults totally ignoring their children, children getting bored, children running riot.

We've done some weddings in churches with her when she was younger and as long as she felt included, she behaved just fine.

To pretend a four year old is incapable of sitting still through a church service is just making excuses.

And seriously,? A whole box of donuts? I'm a grown woman who loves cake, even I couldn't eat a whole box of donuts.

If one loves the Christian faith, and what is teaches about loving one's neighbour

But why is the old lady who wants to be able to hear the service not the neighbour of the mother? Why does she have to extend endless toleration and love and 'neighbourliness' to families who show no 'neighbourliness' or love back by showing some consideration to her needs rather than just expecting her to meet theirs?

those...who like to worship in churches....surely it is important to create churches where children, and families with small children, feel welcome?

But why should one groups need to be 'welcomed' be more important than another? Surely all people should be just as welcome? So those who would like to hear the sermon and prayers and music without major distractions too?

But even if she wasn't, she'd still be one of God's children. Who are all welcome, be it during services, or whenever. Why shouldn't they treat it like their front room

The old lady is one of God's children too. And she may well like her front room free from marauding children. Does she get to treat it like her front room too? Perhaps she should start blasting out Radio 4 and sticking on her corn plasters?

Whatever way you dress it up, it's not about 'welcolming' or 'love' or 'neighbourliness' if you don't extend it to others in the church too. It's selfishness. And they become empty hypocritical words used to guilt trip others into showing a consideration which you refuse to extend back to them.

I think your son walking up and down during church is normal if he was quiet and not making noise then he is being well behaved. I believe strongly in attachment parenting as much as responding to you childs cues and not allowing them to cry children are not meant to be seen and not heard it's rediculous that women was rude and you sound like you have raised a lovely son.

If children are aloud in the church then obviously they are not gonna behave exactly as adults do. why should they? They are only children once.

Oh dear, this thread is so depressing.

Clearly I've been monumentally lucky, growing up within a church which loved and valued children, and allowed and expected us to behave as children. Made provision for us, as such. It was a fantastic experience - talk about raised by a village, and all! Such a happy childhood, and church experience.

So has my dd, thus far, but who knows what might happen in the future?

I continue to pray for the future of the church, and probably need to stop reading this thread now, before I become even more discouraged than I already am.

I'll pray especially for you, OP - with your crunchiness, and your dc's wildness, all by your own definition, you sound really nice to me, with a real sense of self-irony, and, dare I say it, humility.

considerate of others, donuts, attachment parenting

'Merica is what happens when children are constantly told their wonderful and don't have set boundaries.

At 4, he should understand how to behave and in Church and so should you. I think him sitting down on a pew is the correct behaviour. The woman was probably a little OTT. Your son and the other child probably were making some noise though.

FWIW, my mother pioneered attachment parenting but she called them 'reins'

It doesn't sound like attachment parenting; it sounds like boundary-free parenting?

their = they're

(hangs head in shame)

I love how you correct the grammar in part of your sentence, but leave the rest as complete nonsense funniest. What does Merica is what happens... mean?

www.mamanatural.com/shit-crunchy-people-say/

Never heard of "attachment parenting" my friends and I just looked after our kids. We mostly put their needs first, occasionally they had to wait and put our needs first. Only " attachment" was Bowlby's attachment theory which I guess this" parenting " has come from. Can't see what it has to do with the post either.

Church: We have Children's Liturgy. Children up to about 8 go out for about half the time and follow at their own level. More formal than most Sunday Schools that I have heard of over the years. They can get up and wander but gradually learn to sit for a while and hold hands at the end for prayer even the toddlers do this. I lost count as they came out yesterday must have been about 25.
In our church we have a well known parishioner who lets his child (2 1/2) have a wander usually a circuit or two, the four children plus new baby that sit quietly in the pew and the two year old that plays quietly at the back with his cars. Most adults don't mind and if they do either the family move to a better pew or the adult does. We have tea, coffee and juice with cake after ( have heard it used as a bribe for good behaviour) and the adults get to know the children and talk to them. The children learn to be respectful. They learn to sit quietly and take part. They help with jobs. They hand out the books at the beginning and smile, they tidy the pews after and hand out flowers and eggs on special days. They are involved. They are part of the church community. They are the future but equally they need to learn to play quietly, to take part and that some adults are elderly and can't hear so well. It is give and take.
Next week take a few things... A little book, a pencil and paper, a small cuddly toy to amuse / distract if he is being a bit noisy. The other person may chose to sit somewhere else. At four he should be starting to sit quietly for some of the service. There is a four year old in my pew. She can sit quietly some of the time but not all. I wouldn't have moved him. Remind him next Sunday that some people like quiet. He might have been too noisy (wild),she might have had a different upbringing or maybe she isn't well / couldn't hear. She could have been more tactful. Don't stop going over one incident. He will learn. One of our children who used to do a circuit of church every week is an altar boy now!