To worry I've turned into the attachment mum horror

[ASAS]

So, as a seasoned MNer I'm asking you lovely lot to judge me as tbh I know I'll get the truth.

My DS. Darling Son. Without droning on we attachment parent because honestly I just assumed that's what everyone was doing, comfort him when he cries, let him explore, respond to his cues etc etc. I just thought that's how we (all parents) did it. I kind of still do as I genuinely rarely see a shouty mum, we're all quite new age and chilled aren't we?! Anyway, that was background to let you know I don't see my parenting as that unusual.

My son is now 4 and wonderful. Me, however, not so wonderful after the following happened. Please hand me grip if you feel it's needed...

In church this morning a woman in front of me, who I didn't recognise, turned to me and said, "Have some respect. Sit your child on your knee." For context we'd moved pews next to a toddler he loves to play with. My son and the toddler were not making any noise but were walking (within arms reach). I was so ashamed that I picked up my son, and spent the rest of the service on steps outside.

I love church. It might as well be a spa day for how good it is for me, and everyone is always so lovely to my son. Afterwards the toddlers mum came and found me in the playroom and was a bit lost too but it was me not her the woman spoke to.

Yes, he's wild and I'm crunchy. But he's also so lovely that he asked if he could take the box of donuts he earned as a reward to church this morning to share with everyone, unprompted. He's not naughty, just 4. But is that me being a defensive attachment parent with a pfb?

So go on. Have I done this totally wrong?

[Floggingmolly]

What's out of order about waiting to speak until the source of the noise has left and is no longer drowning you out, Jeff?
The whole congregation was on your side... . Was it a public lynching?

[JeffVaderneedsatray]

We are a Catholic family and both my children have attended church regularly since they were 6 days old.
We have always felt welcomed (apart from one incident with one priest but the whole congregation was on my side...... DD was crying. I stood up to take her out. We always used to sit over at the side because if we sat anywhere near the red carpet DS used to try to run up and down it. Due to the design of our church it meant the journey to the door was longer. The priest was preaching. As I stood up he stopped speaking and he remianed pointedly silent until I was outside. It made me feel like shit and I had stood up as soon as DD started fussing. After Mass lots of people came to tell me he was out of order)
DS and DD used to take quiet books and colouring. We had a bagful of churchy books that only ever went to church including an ace Noah's Ark story. I often ended up sitting on the floor reading said book in a whisper.

Children should be welcome in church but it is up to us as parents to ensure that they behave in an appropriate way. DD and DS both sat on the floor rather than the pew but they were quiet and still so meh. (DD often still sits on the floor even though she's 8 but if she's quiet again Meh)

[MrsJayy]

Och cant quote on phone but yy to being flexiable

[MintJulip]

Just to clarify AP is a set of tools, not a checklist that you have to adhere rigidly to every one

This x 100.

This is the problem when you read about structures and cling onto a set of beliefs like this.

You have to be flexible in life and be able to respond accordingly to each situation.

[MintJulip]

I cant get my head round this post either.

The ap parenting and the "Crunchy" comment.

FWIW I am also I suppose what you might label as attachment, and we are still BF at nearly four. But my DD does have boundaries I have developed due to living next to a viciously fast road, a stern NO. But I would struggle to keep toddler under control in church . i agree that nothing happened here.

She sounds up tight, and you sound insecure.

Many parents incl me, parent as you describe, its just natural and normal. And in our local church we have a mix of very well dressed people ( usually older) nad far more casually dressed younger.

[dolkapots]

Haven't RTFT OP but what I found as a parent early on that ascribing labels to yourself sets you up for insecurity and anxiety. Just to clarify AP is a set of tools, not a checklist that you have to adhere rigidly to every one.

My parenting could have been described as AP, although I never called myself that. In AP circles I did find that half were like me, responding to babies cues, co sleeping, feeding on demand, using a sling when my back wasn't in agony etc. The other half seemed to think that AP meant that children ran havoc, hurt others, made demands on parents that they had to obey etc. I just left in the end as there seemed to be too much focus on who was the most AP.

Anyway, sorry you had that experience but it has nothing to do with your parenting choice, rather the choice of the church you are attending. I found older members of the congregation found children in the service to be sacrilege and inappropriate, which may be the case of your church.

[Lucked]

I have only just realised that there are never any discussions on MN about AP, that is unusual for a parenting forum I came across AP and crunchy lots when I first ventured onto parenting forums. I can now see that it would not go down well in MN which I am not sure puts the forum in a good light, we can be very intolerant and dismissive.

This thread reminds me of a little boy I had to see for a procedure before I was a parent. Many adults wouldn't have liked doing this procedure and it would be intimadating for a child. The mum was quite strict and at the end he had to come over and thank me which I said wasn't necessary. The mum then explained that she used to let him away with murder because she loved him so much and she had struggled to tell him off. Then one day ( I presume something like the OP happened) she realised she wanted everyone else to love him too and that that wouldn't happen if he didn't behave and show people respect and courtesy.

That random encounter in my 20s has stayed with me and probably had a big impact on my parenting.

[Just5minswithDacre]

By he's wild and I'm crunchy I really just mean he'll walk around undeterred by me (unless it's dangerous etc) and generally I look a riot. I wear jeans to church.

I love a good spoof thread. This is a spoof?

Box of doughnuts as a reward?

[bigbuttons]

Fgs, the woman in the church went there presumably top hear the service and do some, well, quiet reflection. I wouldn't go to a church that had kids running around when people were trying to pray and reflect.

[Iwanttogetitright]

Huge pity you weren't able to immediately retort "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them".
I do kid's liturgy at our church & cannot tell enough parents to remind others of this bit o' the Bible.
Bringing kids to church represents the future of the church itself. They need to experience different settings & learn to adapt their behaviour etc.
Good on you for attending for yourself & letting your little one join in.

The old dear might have an hearing problem, have her own issues & not be aware of her unpleasantness.
Grab / invite her afterwards (over coffee?) just to hear her out, let her talk. So you can explain your side to her.

Grrrrr. I'm trying to be reasonable when, MANY times I've been in similar situation & wanted to shout at such unreasonable ppl.
Esp with my own 4 kids being quiet/ noisy/nosey at so many times.

Stick with yr gentleness & commitment & keep loving that boy😃👍

[Mizzworthy1]

No flogging I'm not sure why you would think that as I've clearly takes about various issues in my post.

[Floggingmolly]

Really, Mizz? All you got from this thread is that "some people just don't like kids"?

[Mizzworthy1]

God what an awful thread OP. The judges are out in force. Apparently identifying as AP is something to be ridiculed. I'm sorry you've been given such a bunch of shitty judgemental answers. For what it's worth you sound like a lovely mum to me and the woman in church sounds like a curmudgeon. Keep parenting in the way that works for you and modelling how to behave appropriately and with respect. Possibly not sitting with the toddler would have been better. Who knows? We live and learn and that goes for parenting too.
The thing is we can only be responsible for our own behaviour. You can't change how other people are and some just don't like kids etc. That's their choice. Personally not one I agree with but there we go. Use it as an opportunity for your little one to recognise that everyone is different. He sounds lovely for wanting to share his treat with everyone. You should be proud of him.
As for all the people saying 4 year old should be able to sit still in church... what rubbish! Church is dull enough as an adult. I say this having say through a very long ultra religious wedding recently. I was bored stiff so how a 4 year old would fare is beyond imagining.

[mrsplum2015]

I really struggle with this. I agree that children need to sit and behave in certain situations but the age at which that can be expected probably does vary from child to child. My youngest of 3 is now almost 3 (birthday next month). She is absolutely wild and if she doesn't want to sit and behave she simply won't. And I do believe she's strong-willed / difficult / fairly consistently parented, not just ineffectively parented. And I feel ashamed most days in varying situations....

But, she is also totally adorable, cute, will totally follow the rules in some situations (generally where there are other similar - age children, and that's not her normal as my older children are quite a bit older so not really playmates/meaningful (to her!) role models)....

I hope she gets easier. I try and avoid awkward situations which is pretty much impossible given I have limited family support and DH has a very busy FT (and more!) job.... I often find myself dragging her by her arm / standing next to her lying on the floor / holding a wriggling 18 kilo weight and trying to concentrate on a conversation.

So my older 2 DC at 4 years old would have easily coped with sitting quietly in church, but my youngest I am thinking it's doubtful, and I've done nothing differently. I am not prepared to rule her with complete fear (although have resorted to those tactics on a few odd ocassions when I'm at my wits end, and they don't work for her anyway!!).

[RaqsMax]

Different churches have different services that vary enormously in formality and tone. We have a Family Service in our CofE church that welcomes small children and positively encourages them to move about, run up and down the aisle and join in. There is a big box of maracas, tambourines and drums for enthusiastic noise-making to accompany the hymns. There are small tables/chairs in a side chapel with drawing materials and supervising adults so that kids can do an activity if they get bored, and during the service there is lots of acting out of the bible stories with dressing up and role playing. And cakes afterwards. It's brilliant. Some of the more senior members of the congregation choose to attend this service because they love seeing the antics that the kids get up to. Others, who prefer a more reflective and formal service will attend at a different time.

Perhaps you could explore other service options at your church? Generally, I would say that if people are there to worship in a 'standard' service, that children should not be allowed to walk about or go unchecked if making noise.

The lady was a little brusque in her manner, but perhaps she was at the end of her tether if your son had been disturbing her for a while? I suspect she would have given you some non-verbal cues (sighing, huffing, tsking or a black look or two) before she spoke out?

[darbylou]

I don't really understand what the problem is here. If your 4 year old was wandering around church during the service he's going to be a distraction for others. By 4 years old he should be more than able to sit next to you during the service, if needed with something to keep him quietly occupied. The woman who said something to you sounded a little harsh but if she's been dealing with it for weeks now you can't blame her for becoming a little irate.
Church is not just 'as good as a spa day' for you, you should be respectful of others, I wouldn't want somebodies 4 year old ruining my spa day.

[Christinayangstwistedsista]

Ds (10) are curled on couch with tea, Carmel shortcake, watching Masterchef... Is this AP???? Although , after reading Derxa and Mrs jayys posts I am worried he will still be doing this at 45, with no sign of moving out

[MrsJayy]

Yes honestly do be careful of hes spirited or wild after q certain age he will just come over as rude and pushy im not trying to be mean honestly i was on a campsite with a crunchy family and the son just was a pain in the backside if i heard finn come here sweetie once i heard it a million times Finn had plonked himself in tents and caravans

[DailyMaui]

All this talk of crunchy has brought back rather traumatic memories of growing up with proper crunchy parents. I even went to school in a real afghan coat, brought back from Afghanistan during my parent's world of hippy travel, which smelled of dead camel.

Anyhow my crunchy dad was quite strict so I was never wild but I spent a considerable time with fellow crunchy kids, many of whom were allowed to do whatever the fuck they liked when they liked. Except their crunchy parents could blame being stoned for their (lack of) attachement parenting.

Luckily that's not you OP BUT be careful of the "he's wild" thing. Quite often a wild child is just a pain in the arse for everyone else - no matter how loveable the parent thinks they are.

[MrsJayy]

I nearly called you a crispy on a post

[derxa]

Ah ASAS Unfortunately the thread has run amok. I'm sure you're a lovely mum albeit a little bit 'crunchy'

[ASAS]

Although I'm weirdly proud to have 15 pages analysing my antics, it's gone a little haywire. Bank holiday boredom I'd guess. But to be clear I read the Bible, I don't take drugs and chances are much like Peaches I'd guess I have wee dips in confidence hence one comment affecting me so much.

There is a children's part of our service, I lead it for the preschoolers. We all, children included, attended the last part of the main service yesterday. Trying to think of other questions that pps have raised but basically I came on yesterday to ask you all for grip, which has been gladly received.

This is mumsnet, we're all here because we're mums/parents/crunchy/vipers are we not? Therefore I deem us all fantastic.

Truly sorry if I've offended anyone.

[AgentPineapple]

YANBU some people have some queer ideas about how children should be/act. Don't feel ashamed he is a wee boy and it's not in his make up to sit still. Anyone who thinks it is is BU. I think you'll just have to accept there are some very judgemental people out there and as hard as it is, you just have to learn to ignore them. Keep doing what you are doing, you are a good mum and people just have to accept that children don't conform to what they perceive as socially acceptable. IMHO it is the woman who was acting like a toddler

[SpiritedLondon]

Aaaah yes! And right there is a perfect example of why I don't go to church - because it's full of precious judgy people who talk about Christianity and then complain about a 4 year old having the cheek to be breathing and moving quietly near them. Well your son is a member of that congregation as much as anyone. I expect its some dull as ditch water C of E service. Quite frankly if my 4 year old was playing quietly and not running amok and shrieking I'd be delighted. What is the attitude of the vicar towards children? Do they have a family service you could attend instead of this service? If not then I'd be looking around for somewhere else to attend. YANBU

[derxa]

That is indeed horrendous and very dark Bill To be fair she didn't have a very good parental model though.