To worry I've turned into the attachment mum horror

[ASAS]

So, as a seasoned MNer I'm asking you lovely lot to judge me as tbh I know I'll get the truth.

My DS. Darling Son. Without droning on we attachment parent because honestly I just assumed that's what everyone was doing, comfort him when he cries, let him explore, respond to his cues etc etc. I just thought that's how we (all parents) did it. I kind of still do as I genuinely rarely see a shouty mum, we're all quite new age and chilled aren't we?! Anyway, that was background to let you know I don't see my parenting as that unusual.

My son is now 4 and wonderful. Me, however, not so wonderful after the following happened. Please hand me grip if you feel it's needed...

In church this morning a woman in front of me, who I didn't recognise, turned to me and said, "Have some respect. Sit your child on your knee." For context we'd moved pews next to a toddler he loves to play with. My son and the toddler were not making any noise but were walking (within arms reach). I was so ashamed that I picked up my son, and spent the rest of the service on steps outside.

I love church. It might as well be a spa day for how good it is for me, and everyone is always so lovely to my son. Afterwards the toddlers mum came and found me in the playroom and was a bit lost too but it was me not her the woman spoke to.

Yes, he's wild and I'm crunchy. But he's also so lovely that he asked if he could take the box of donuts he earned as a reward to church this morning to share with everyone, unprompted. He's not naughty, just 4. But is that me being a defensive attachment parent with a pfb?

So go on. Have I done this totally wrong?

[MsHoolie]

Me and my 5 siblings were taken to church every week, and knew that we had to 'behave' in church.
I think if nothing else it is a very useful lesson in the fact that there are times you need to sit still and be quiet. Good life lesson and prepares them for a classroom.

So I took my son to church from birth as well.
When he was really little I'd sit at the back in case he kicked off so I could ld take him out (I HATE when parents don't take their crying kids out!!)

When he was a toddler I'd bring crayons and he'd happily colour in bible scene pictures.
I never let him run about, taught him early that it would upset other people, did the trick.
He knew church was not a playground.

They have a nice option at my church for the kids to go to the children's liturgy in the hall next door, where they are told kid friendly versions of the bible then produce collages etc to display to the congregation when they come back in before communion, which is really cute.

Our priest actively discourages anyone from tutting/eye rolling when little kids run about/make a bit of a noise, he wants church to be a welcoming place for them, which is all well and good, but I'll be honest, a lot of the congregation are elderly and struggle hearing as it is, let alone have to contend with the distraction of young kids screeching or running around. I am not a fan of that (and at 4 your boy should be over that 'running up and down the aisles' thing they love to do!)
Not sure exactly what your kid was doing to piss this woman off, but all I would say is be mindful that others are there to pray/worship/listen, and ensure your kid is not being too much of a distraction.

I do not agree with that 'keep him on your lap' nonsense... 2 hopes of keeping a kid still on your lap for an hour... ridiculous demand, take it with a pinch of salt.
But bring stuff that will occupy him for the hour... Get him a kid's bible with lots of bright pictures (if you read this at home he can follow it himself in church)
I got a bible scene colouring book... brilliant way to occupy them but make sure you give him crayons not pens.. I did have an embarrassing moment when mind decided to draw on the bench!!
(Toy cars are a big mistake too I found out!)

Good luck.

[derxa]

YY Mrs Jayy I think there is a value in being nasty at their adolescence so they hate you and want to leave.

[witsender]

Peaches died of an overdose, what has that got to do with anything?

[Vaara]

Well you can follow all the parenting bibles you can find, but we're all human aren't we?

[OTheHugeManatee]

All kinds of things heighten cortisol, including breastfeeding. It's not as simple as 'cortisol=bad'. Those studies that have shown harmful effects of infant stress are based on pretty extreme cases of neglect and are simply not applicable to normal parents. Otherwise there'd be a marked difference between the mental health of PFB and second, third or subsequent children, who just don't always get seen to as quickly because other children's needs may need to be prioritised.

What I think often happens is that a study gets quotes based on a severely neglected cohort, and bad science reporting simplifies the findings so it sounds relevant to normal families and then gets taken on as gospel by this side or that. The reality is that normal pre ting encompasses a range of possible approaches none of which will have an obvious impact in the long term. There is no credible evidence that AP is any better for children than any other approach. That doesn't mean don't do it, if it works for you that's none of anyone else's business, but no-one should kid themselves that there is anything particularly virtuous or evidence-based about it.

[MrsJayy]

Cortisol is raised when baby is stressed yeah but a baby crying for a few minutes or a toddler flipping out because it is frustrated will not be harmed by a little bit stress thats what im trying to say some parents who AP will not allow their child to be upset the parent can stress because they are trying to anticipate needs and sometimes 4yr olds need to conform and sit still and not run about.

[derxa]

Peaches died of an overdose, what has that got to do with anything? Well I once met Paula Yates in a coffee shop in Whitstable and she parented in the same way as the OP. Peaches was trying her very best and things got too much for her. Please don't flame me. We are all mothers trying our best.

[MrsJayy]

My cousins child sat next to her mums overdosed comatosed body for hpurs that has nothing to do with AP

[BillSykesDog]

Harry, but then why say 'I'm going to miss him when I go to nursery with all the attachment parenting I've done'? Why not say 'I'm going to miss him when he goes to nursery'? Because the former has a real implication that if you do AP then you somehow have more feelings and love for your children than otherwise?

I did a lot of what some people would consider AP myself, but not because I slavishly followed a proscribed regime or theory. And I'm always a bit dubious about people who feel the need to publicly label their parenting anyway and dubious about how much it is a 'must do the latest thing' pose. Let us not forget that one of the loudest proponents of AP was using it as a cover for getting away from her DH then abandoning her baby alone for hours while she got smacked off her nut.

[BillSykesDog]

X post. Using AP as an excuse for getting rid of your husband so you can get fucked up in peace is not 'trying your best'.

[Floggingmolly]

It doesn't have anything to down the AP. the only connection is that Peaches was attempting a secondary career as almost a professional attachment parent; publicly expounding on how we should all be doing it while sending the children to their grandparents for three days a week so she could indulge her habit.
Sad, but no lessons for or against whatever attachment parenting turns out to be there...

[derxa]

Tbh BillSykes I don't know what happened with Peaches. Was she trying to get away from her DH?

[BillSykesDog]

Not get away from him like he was doing anything wrong. Her DH used to take the elder son to visit his parents some weekends and apparently Peaches used AP as a reason to stay back at their home in Kent with the younger child. In reality it was because she wanted him out of the house while she stayed back so she could take drugs. He thought she had stopped and had made her throw drugs away and seek help when he'd found she had them hidden in the house.

[derxa]

That is indeed horrendous and very dark Bill To be fair she didn't have a very good parental model though.

[SpiritedLondon]

Aaaah yes! And right there is a perfect example of why I don't go to church - because it's full of precious judgy people who talk about Christianity and then complain about a 4 year old having the cheek to be breathing and moving quietly near them. Well your son is a member of that congregation as much as anyone. I expect its some dull as ditch water C of E service. Quite frankly if my 4 year old was playing quietly and not running amok and shrieking I'd be delighted. What is the attitude of the vicar towards children? Do they have a family service you could attend instead of this service? If not then I'd be looking around for somewhere else to attend. YANBU

[AgentPineapple]

YANBU some people have some queer ideas about how children should be/act. Don't feel ashamed he is a wee boy and it's not in his make up to sit still. Anyone who thinks it is is BU. I think you'll just have to accept there are some very judgemental people out there and as hard as it is, you just have to learn to ignore them. Keep doing what you are doing, you are a good mum and people just have to accept that children don't conform to what they perceive as socially acceptable. IMHO it is the woman who was acting like a toddler

[ASAS]

Although I'm weirdly proud to have 15 pages analysing my antics, it's gone a little haywire. Bank holiday boredom I'd guess. But to be clear I read the Bible, I don't take drugs and chances are much like Peaches I'd guess I have wee dips in confidence hence one comment affecting me so much.

There is a children's part of our service, I lead it for the preschoolers. We all, children included, attended the last part of the main service yesterday. Trying to think of other questions that pps have raised but basically I came on yesterday to ask you all for grip, which has been gladly received.

This is mumsnet, we're all here because we're mums/parents/crunchy/vipers are we not? Therefore I deem us all fantastic.

Truly sorry if I've offended anyone.

[derxa]

Ah ASAS Unfortunately the thread has run amok. I'm sure you're a lovely mum albeit a little bit 'crunchy'

[MrsJayy]

I nearly called you a crispy on a post

[DailyMaui]

All this talk of crunchy has brought back rather traumatic memories of growing up with proper crunchy parents. I even went to school in a real afghan coat, brought back from Afghanistan during my parent's world of hippy travel, which smelled of dead camel.

Anyhow my crunchy dad was quite strict so I was never wild but I spent a considerable time with fellow crunchy kids, many of whom were allowed to do whatever the fuck they liked when they liked. Except their crunchy parents could blame being stoned for their (lack of) attachement parenting.

Luckily that's not you OP BUT be careful of the "he's wild" thing. Quite often a wild child is just a pain in the arse for everyone else - no matter how loveable the parent thinks they are.

[MrsJayy]

Yes honestly do be careful of hes spirited or wild after q certain age he will just come over as rude and pushy im not trying to be mean honestly i was on a campsite with a crunchy family and the son just was a pain in the backside if i heard finn come here sweetie once i heard it a million times Finn had plonked himself in tents and caravans

[Christinayangstwistedsista]

Ds (10) are curled on couch with tea, Carmel shortcake, watching Masterchef... Is this AP???? Although , after reading Derxa and Mrs jayys posts I am worried he will still be doing this at 45, with no sign of moving out

[darbylou]

I don't really understand what the problem is here. If your 4 year old was wandering around church during the service he's going to be a distraction for others. By 4 years old he should be more than able to sit next to you during the service, if needed with something to keep him quietly occupied. The woman who said something to you sounded a little harsh but if she's been dealing with it for weeks now you can't blame her for becoming a little irate.
Church is not just 'as good as a spa day' for you, you should be respectful of others, I wouldn't want somebodies 4 year old ruining my spa day.

[RaqsMax]

Different churches have different services that vary enormously in formality and tone. We have a Family Service in our CofE church that welcomes small children and positively encourages them to move about, run up and down the aisle and join in. There is a big box of maracas, tambourines and drums for enthusiastic noise-making to accompany the hymns. There are small tables/chairs in a side chapel with drawing materials and supervising adults so that kids can do an activity if they get bored, and during the service there is lots of acting out of the bible stories with dressing up and role playing. And cakes afterwards. It's brilliant. Some of the more senior members of the congregation choose to attend this service because they love seeing the antics that the kids get up to. Others, who prefer a more reflective and formal service will attend at a different time.

Perhaps you could explore other service options at your church? Generally, I would say that if people are there to worship in a 'standard' service, that children should not be allowed to walk about or go unchecked if making noise.

The lady was a little brusque in her manner, but perhaps she was at the end of her tether if your son had been disturbing her for a while? I suspect she would have given you some non-verbal cues (sighing, huffing, tsking or a black look or two) before she spoke out?

[mrsplum2015]

I really struggle with this. I agree that children need to sit and behave in certain situations but the age at which that can be expected probably does vary from child to child. My youngest of 3 is now almost 3 (birthday next month). She is absolutely wild and if she doesn't want to sit and behave she simply won't. And I do believe she's strong-willed / difficult / fairly consistently parented, not just ineffectively parented. And I feel ashamed most days in varying situations....

But, she is also totally adorable, cute, will totally follow the rules in some situations (generally where there are other similar - age children, and that's not her normal as my older children are quite a bit older so not really playmates/meaningful (to her!) role models)....

I hope she gets easier. I try and avoid awkward situations which is pretty much impossible given I have limited family support and DH has a very busy FT (and more!) job.... I often find myself dragging her by her arm / standing next to her lying on the floor / holding a wriggling 18 kilo weight and trying to concentrate on a conversation.

So my older 2 DC at 4 years old would have easily coped with sitting quietly in church, but my youngest I am thinking it's doubtful, and I've done nothing differently. I am not prepared to rule her with complete fear (although have resorted to those tactics on a few odd ocassions when I'm at my wits end, and they don't work for her anyway!!).