To be 100% confused how to vote

[Yellowsun11]

Regarding Europe - Iv looked on line and for the first time tempted not to vote as I really don't know how to vote .

I was completely with you until that last paragraph Laura - you might want to think about your ageist language and views Bloody hell

The Out-camp keeps claiming that remaining in means EU law trumps national law. That is nonsense. EU directives need to be ratified and enacted into national law, but that's what parliament is doing. Often it appears it's the UK's stringent interpretation of EU directives that is the issue, not the original directive. The current government has come up with so e pretty disastrous myopic laws (and pushed them through as statutory instruments rather than undergoing parliamentary scrutiny) and I've no reason to believe that they'd stop if we're out. That alone is reason enough for me to vote in.

im a stayer for 4 reasons -
european convention on human rights - even though there are different opinions on whether we can stay in but leave the ECHR
I don't want the tories to erode anymore of my rights - I quite like the right to a fair trail
privacy
freedom of religion
freedom from torture
discrimination
slavery
protecting victims of domestic violence

Patrick stewart does a good explanation here

I think Europe would further de-stabilise without us and I don't want to be a ferry ride away from a raging war. do I think there will be conscription - no. do I think we would get involved? not unless there is an oil field involved where rich people can get a shit load richer (tony blair)

don't want an economic crash - not in the short term - not in the long term. because I will lose my job in the public sector, the finances are so fragile as it is with the governments bullshit devolution, double devolution, triple devolution bull shit - giving financial responsibility for social care to local authorities so they have to put up your council tax and the govt can say 'not my fault'.

the current govt is batshit crazy - batshit crazy and I am glad there is another layer of accountability

Could someone explain to me what would happen after Brexit for EU Nationals? I am British but my husband is not, he is European. How would this affect his rights to live and work here? The company he works for has already scaremongered about the consequences of Brexit. I am really worried for our future, i don't want to leave the UK and am also worried about my rights to live in Europe after Brexit.

If you aren't sure then vote to stay in on the basis the status quo has done you no harm. Do vote however. Every vote counts and unfortunately the massive white old age pensioner not too well educated crowd who are often UKIP or closet racists will be turning out in force to vote leave. We need to stop them. The younger brighter busy crowd may just not bother to vote.

And yet apparently the 'leave' voters are the bigots....

^I don't want the tories to erode anymore of my rights - I quite like the right to a fair trail
privacy
freedom of religion
freedom from torture
discrimination
slavery
protecting victims of domestic violence^

You do realise we had these rights prior to joining the EU?
Under Tory governments too

I might not vote either. I just wish it was clear cut what was best for the country. I haven't a clue.

Re- what happens to EU people here prior to Brexit - Article 70 of Vienna convention will come into force. Rights acquired under a treaty not withdrawn when a treaty ends.

There won't be a mass exodus of EU citizens post Brexit. Scaremongering from the IN side. What will happen is we can control future immigration.

On Question Time last week discussing how we home the expected 3 million EU citizens the government predicts will arrive over next ten years....

It will affect us having more control and ability to plan for school places and NHS services for instance, than an unknown amount of people arriving.

The actual document here :
treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%201155/volume-1155-I-18232-English.pdf

Please do read the attached article to the bottom - bit longer than it looks dated 21.4.16.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36090188

The situation in EU countries is at breaking point economically - it is being just about held in place by lots of emergency measures and there are none left - leading to Mario Draghi' s "helicopter" money idea - giving people money to spend. Greece and Italy financial systems about to blow big time- they are hoping to keep lid on it until after our referendum ...

Do read up on financial situation in Europe and the social problems ensuing; not to mention the rise of extremism happening due to EU fantasy of a single homogenous entity.

The commission are known openly to be of the mind that referendums should be banned as they are becoming disruptive - with their carry on regardless of reality of people's lives around them.

EU suits big businesses.

Scaremongering to say maternity rights etc disappear under Brexit.

EU law stipulates 14 weeks leave required - we have 52 weeks.

See attached and read to bottom where Kathleen Morrison at Brodies Solicitors discusses.
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-referendum-workers-employee-rights-maternity-sick-holiday-leave-pay-a6889226.html

The commission are known openly to be of the mind that referendums should be banned as they are becoming disruptive

That's shocking More evidence that the EU isn't democratic.

I quite like this straightforward Pros & Cons list for remain or leave.

Worth a read, and it's not full of doublespeak and stats.

https://theweeflea.com/2016/04/26/european-referendum-the-tipping-point/]

Custardo Its very VERY scary to think people really genuinely believe they wouldn't have these rights if we left.

Coming very late to the thread, but coming back to the point made about the oap exit votes. To be honest I feel this is very insulting. I haven't made up my own mind yet, but my 78 year old dad is in the exit camp. I have always looked up to him, he is a very wise old man with a life long knowledge. He follows politics closely, often shouting at the tv . I remember him being very vocal against joining the Euro. Don't be so disrespectful of the older population.

It's funny how the Brexiters keep pushing the line that nobody actually knows what will happen after a Brexit. Except when it's something that they claim. Then, of course, it's absolutely 1000% certain...

That's a laugh, coming from you. I never claimed (unlike you) that I know what would happen.

The point about maternity rights etc is that they would be determined by our government (as they largely are now) upon brexit.

The EU has spectacularly failed to stop nonsense like workfare and ludicrous PIP assessments in any case - people are a but delusional if they think the EU has brought a raft of super rights - most were already in place.

From what I've read, it seems some people don't actually realise the European Court of Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU.

It is completely separate and is not affected whether we leave the EU or indeed whether the whole EU ceased to exist. (Same way NATO isn't affected whether we are in EU or not).

The European Court of Justice IS part of the EU and sits to enforce EU laws ie agriculture etc.

I think people hear European Court of Justice and actually think of the European Court of Human Rights - and asssume they are one and the same thing.

The European Court of Justice is to enforce member states are enacting its laws.

The European Court of Human Rights - we know what that's for - but don't mix up with ECJ.

The ECJ is bureaucrats dealing with checking agriculture legislation - the ECHJ is, well I assume you know.

dingit

i agree - there's a lot of sectarian mudslinging (on both sides) - people trying to say those who don't agree are old, white, ill-educated - which apart from anything else is, as you say, insulting (if it suggests their views are automatically invalid).

They don't seem to Leave, I had to explain just that to a friends parents yesterday. They seemed somewhat confused about their reasons for voting out once that misunderstanding had been cleared up.

I'm voting to stay.
Our public schools turn out the same self important crap year after year
I done want to be at the mercy of Cameron and his cronies
I belive too that if we leave the US will be a greater influence than they are now and that horrifies me

The European Court of Justice enforces member states are enacting its agriculture laws.

The European Court of Of Human Rights is the body countries are answerable to, and IS NOT part of the EU or ECJ - that why they are termed as "pen pushers".

Please have a look at both websites.

Independent of EU and deals with human rights: europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/court-justice/index_en.htm

Court concerned with impel tattoo of EU trade laws etc : www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=home

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice

A court which is supra national and "has power or influence that transcends national boundaries or governments". The ECHR is a separate entity from EU ie in same way that NATO has nothing to do with EU and membership is not affected by EU membership.

Whoops should have put this page as last link above :

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice

And this
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights

I done want to be at the mercy of Cameron and his cronies

And how exactly do you think the EU is helping with that? It doesn't look to be going too well from where I'm sitting.

Supplementary question - so you seem to think the EU limits the power of our own government - fine when it's doing something you agree with (limiting Cameron apparently) - what about when it's something you don't? Isn't it all a bit undemocratic?

Ianthewhore: have you seen freedom of information on TTIP last week ?

This is what we will be tied into as part of the EU and U.S. Trade agreement.

Do read and see the view it doesn't benefit us. We've not ever had a trade agreement with US and do ok without it - I'd rather stay out of this EU/US big corporation deal.
do read - www.commondreams.org/news/2016/04/26/uks-secret-ttip-assessment-no-benefits-plenty-risks