To be 100% confused how to vote

[Yellowsun11]

Regarding Europe - Iv looked on line and for the first time tempted not to vote as I really don't know how to vote .

I wasn't sure for ages but feel it is really important so I've done loads of research into the economic impact and come to the conclusion that no one genuinely knows and most probably (after a period of a couple of years of downturn in the economy if we voted out as investors etc panicked ) nothing would change.

Therefore I'm basing my decision on other factors.

My number one priority is relative peace in Europe, no wars. I think for this the EU is vastly important and to me there is nothing else more important than my children not having to suffer a war. So that's a yes for EU as since its invention there has been the longest period of peace in Europe between major nations ever.

Secondly, prosperity of the U.K., not in economic terms (see above) but in developing as a country. Being in the EU gives us the chance to grow in a much less constricts way, it's exciting and opens new oppunities for my kids, and means I might be able to retire abroad much mor easily than my grandparents tried to.

I'm not bothered about immigration as firstly we need immigration to keep this country going and secondly moving out of the EU, unless we want to stop trading With Europe (which will mess up the economy) will mean we have to keep the same level of open boarders as we already have (-as all the other non-eu countries that trade on the same level do).

So over all I've gone for in.

wickedlazy - he's deploying irony. He's ironically adopting the discourse of those who think those things for rhetorical purposed, in order to highlight the unpleasantness of that kind of thinking.

I would never vote Conservative but I'm voting to stay - for the rights and protections that come with that.

Solobo we cross posted

The assumption that we will "keep" all our rights if we remain and "lose" them if we leave is not based on fact. These rights are in UK law and would have to be voted on by parliament in order for the law to be changed.

If the EU voted to change something we would "lose" those rights whether we liked it or not - it is just more people doing the voting.

With the disclaimer that I am a remain voter myself, when trying to put myself in the shoes of an undecided voter I find it hard to believe that I would vote for something that would completely change the political and economic landscape rather. I'm quite a cautious person and I think to vote out you need to have a pretty strong feeling and belief that this is the right thing to do as it carries so many "unknowns" with it, whereas voting to stay is more "Better the devil you know".

I have quite strong views about remaining myself though so do find it hard to think neutrally!

I'm also another "In" voter who would never dream of voting Conservative!

Our laws are irreversibly being taken over by EU law, which trumps UK law. It's a one-way journey. The unelected EU Commission propose new laws. As only one of 28 countries we have little say. Whenever the UK has voted against something we've been outvoted.

If we leave the EU, we can then have all our laws made by MPs in Westminster who will be looking at what's best for the UK. Collectively, we can vote out a party if we don't like them, and elect a different government who can get rid of any laws that haven't worked or which the British people no longer want.

It's NATO who have kept the peace, rather than the EU. And I don't see any change in that happening just because the UK leaves the EU.

However, if the EU is confident of a peaceful future then why are there plans for an EU army and police force to replace national ones?

I think it is a bit of a misnomer that there has been peace in Europe since the invention of the EU.

We need to remember that up until 1989, a lot of current EU member states were under Soviet control and we were living in a cold war political climate. You cannot really argue this was genuine peace. Half of Germany was a client state under foreign jurisdiction. The peace here was kept by NATO, not any incarnation of the EU.

Indeed, one of the main reasons why France wanted the euro was that it was frightened by the potential consequences of German reunification and demanded French use of the Deutschmark as a kind of "financial hostage".

Then, as soon as that ends, the Yugoslav wars start -- and that scenario was criminally mishandled and provoked by the EU, and solved by ... yep, you guessed it ... NATO and the UN Security Council. Now we have this explosive situation in the Ukraine: again, a situation handled badly by the EU.

In among all this, we have the Troubles, the Basque conflict ... none of which was solved by the EU or any of its previous incarnations.

And we now have a simmering situation in Greece, entirely created by the EU and its vested interests, a situation which is extremely problematic considering Greece's relationship with Turkey, their constant low level military engagements, the fact Greece is broke and has thousands of migrants entering the country, and then you have the fact that Merkel and Tusk are courting Erdogan, who is pretty much a provincial-minded yet very manipulative man who is involved in the conflict in neghbouring Syria and who wishes to be the next Sultan of a Neo-Ottoman Empire.

Meanwhile, Lithuania has brought in a rolling six month draft for all males between 18 and 40 because it fears becoming the next Ukraine. What has the EU done in this area to settle or arrest fears? Absolutely nothing.

When the EU is tested, it is found wanting. And not just wanting, it seems unable to function at all, apart from to screw things up even more.

I am voting out, and I am voting out for five main reasons.

1. I do not think the EU can be reformed in any meaningful way, and I think it will actually be the cause of civil conflict in at least one member state by 2020 and maybe even transnational conflict by 2016.

1. If we vote to remain, then I suspect that mandate will be used to insist we set a date for joining the euro. If we join the euro, the constraints on public spend will be far more of a fiscal shock than our current austerity budgets.

1. There is no way the current structure of the British welfare state nor the NHS can survive if we remain in the EU. We will have to move to a more actuarial system.

1. I don't trust the current Western elites. If they want something, ten to one, it's going to be something that screws ordinary people somewhere down the line.

1. Everything that is positive about EU legislation is already mostly enshrined in UK law.

maybe even transnational conflict by 2016.

Sorry, that should be 2026.

After Brexit the UK remains a European country, but we'll regain our seat on the World Trade Organisation and be free to make trade deals around the world. Since 2010 all regions have seen economic growth, except for Europe.

No other trading group requires "freedom of movement". Indeed the EU's recent free-trade agreements with Colombia and Peru didn't include "freedom of movement". It's an EU ideology that isn't trade-related and which the UK doesn't need. If we leave the EU we will be able to accept refugees, and economic migrants with skills we need from all over the world, instead of the EU having a particular priority.

The EU referendum really isn't about personalities, individual politicians or whether you like the Tories or not.

There are many left-wing reasons for voting "leave", and left-wing politicians supporting Brexit, such as Gisela Stuart, Labour MP and chair of Vote Leave.

Every few years we democratically elect our government, and we'll be able to vote the Tories out next time, if that's what voters here decide.

But we haven't had an EU referendum for the last 41 years, since 1975. Will it be 41 years until the next chance to have our say, in 2057?

Britain's history of human rights dates back hundreds of years, an example being The Magna Carta of 1215.

The UK had already introduced a good deal of helpful legislation long before we joined the EU in 1992.

For example on the subject of women's rights, the Abortion Act 1967 and the Equal Pay Act 1970.

The UK's own Equality Act of 2010 would continue if we leave the EU.

The Domestic Violence Act and the Employment Protection Act were passed independently of the EU, and the Divorce Reform Act was passed before we joined the EU.

There's no need for the undemocratic EU to oversee the UK's human rights.

being on the same side as Gove, IDS, Boris and Chris Grayling is NOT something I'm prepared to contemplate, even if it puts me in the same boat as Cameron.

Cameron is a scum-sucking fuck nut but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

being on the same side as Gove, IDS, Boris and Chris Grayling is NOT something I'm prepared to contemplate

Fortunately there are plenty of other MPs on the "leave" side, such as Priti Patel, Liam Fox, Gisela Stuart, Daniel Hannan, David Owen, Theresa Villiers, Jacob Rees-Mogg (and arguably, Jeremy Corbyn!)

I am confused too.

I don't get why leaving would change maternity leave rules or parental leave rules. I keep seeing that we will loose it if we leave. But surely we can keep those rules if the government choose too?

I do worry about population numbers. Not just immigrants. But general population numbers. I live in a place where you struggle to get a GP to take you on, never get an appointment. Loads of kids got left without school places here. We have local kids travelling 8 miles to school because there wasn't spaces in more local ones.

I don't like a lot of the EU laws and how they trump our own. I don't really get how we have got in the position of not being in charge of what happens.

But I am also nervous of the Unknown. I quite like the safety in numbers. But don't like the pressure other countries put on us to do what they want.

I keep looking for information, it makes my head hurt and I am non the wiser. Dh is voting to leave., but he is very careful when we discuss it as he doesn't want to influence me.

I am probably out but just heard John Major give a good speech on R4 for remaining.

For me voting in is the only answer, but then I have studied EU, Competition and Human Rights law.

Also - the Magna Carta was about property rights and protection for the landed gentry, aristocracy and monarchy, had absolutely nothing to do with human rights

A4

You're a prime example of why I think the vast majority of vote out fans are hard of thinking.

Britain joined the EU in 1973, along with Denmark and Ireland. That'll be a good 19 years before 1992. I can see you've read around the subject broadly and have come to an informed decision.

Hard of thinking because someone votes differently to you, what a charmer!

Werksallhourz - makes good points about Peace. One of my main reasons for leaning towards Out is that I think we are heading towards conflict within Europe. I don't see how it is sustainable in its present form. The migrants are a huge issue - and I don't just mean "immigration" - look at the smaller states and how they are struggling to deal with being forced into this position because they are in the EU.

There is barbed wire in Europe, Greece is going broke, EU is courting Turkey much against the wishes of a significant number of its members, there is fighting in Calais, there are soldiers manning borders. We might be able to sort this out - but I am not convinced. This is an issue I would like to see discussed.

No, hard of thinking because their arguments so them up as either not having bothered to do any research or as wilfully misrepresenting basic facts.

Like the purpose of the Magna Carta and the year in which Britain joined the EU.

There is a principled vote out argument, rarely see it because few people actually want to vote out for those reasons.

HTH.

Just skimmed the five presidents report. It's logical - that's precisely why the euro was set up in the first place (to force political union), but I suspect the final outcome will look quite different to the picture painted in the report. After all, they have to get 27 countries to agree to it. I also can't see Cameron's opt out protecting us - they will need to include Britain in the Deposit scheme and London in the fiscal measures as we are a large contributor and financial centre within the EU (assuming we stay in).

I am voting out, mainly because I think democracy is important, and the EU version of that is warped, quite frankly.

I don't believe we will lose maternity rights etc, they are now too ingrained.

I do believe there will be economic downturn for a period of time, but I don't think this will last and in the long run we will recover and do better.