To be 100% confused how to vote

[Yellowsun11]

Regarding Europe - Iv looked on line and for the first time tempted not to vote as I really don't know how to vote .

The idea of the Tories being in charge of things like working time directives makes me nervous too

You don't like democracy?

The Magna Carta may have been primarily about property rights but was certainly a step in the right direction and it was not as if the whole of the rest of Europe was a marvellous democratic collection of states at that point.

We did have many freedoms pre-1973 that the rest of Europe did not including the right to walk around without ID - a crime in many EU states.

European Law hasn't all been about freedom either - property rights play a pretty big part in all law.

I think it is a bit of a misnomer that there has been peace in Europe since the invention of the EU.

That isn't a misnomer - look it up.

Blue

Nobody said that the rest of Europe was, but to use the Magna Carta as an example of Britain having human rights since the 13th century at best suggests a woeful lack of knowledge regarding our history. Not least that a huge number of the population at that time were serfs, property of the land owners the Manga Carta sought to protect with no more basic rights than livestock.

Out.
Much more likely to see conflict if we remain in actually.
The stuff about human rights is laughable. Really? Come off it.
Trade yes - free movement of people ? No. We have a growing population and we just can't cope anymore. We just can't. We will never ever be able to negotiate better terms either - that's a myth and Cameron should be ashamed for lying. As the child of immigrants I don't feel there is anything wrong with a points based system.
We don't have the infrastructure to support the current numbers. And to be quite frank it's a myth that we need the labour at this point
People get a hard time when they mention the strain it has on housing and the NHS but this is a fact. It's not the only strain but a strain never the less. Yes, people want a better life. But so do we. We have to change and adapt to the needs of the country. Maybe mass immigration was a good thing in 1997 but it's 2016 now.
People keep on going on and on about the nhs relies on immigration. Yes - but non EU immigration. And may I add because it's so hard to train in the UK as a doctor. Many of our nurses are from the Phillipines, India, Jamaica etc. Non EU states. Don't listen to the propaganda.

Voting to remain does have the comfort of "the devil you know" and I do think Britain will be poorer outside of the EU. I also think some form of intra - EU conflict is inevitable in the near future, just based on the current mess in periphery countries and Greece. Civil conflict does not just erupt - it feeds off a combination of poverty, youth unemployment and a breakdown in the social contract between the people and the state. There's a reason why many of the Arab states "buy off" their youthful population with bread and fuel subsidies. Likewise, many of these elements are present in Greece. Up until now, the church and family structures have stepped in to help but the refugee crisis is pushing this to breaking point. I can see us sending soldiers as part of an EU task force to "pacify" border disputes in the future.

We signed the European Convention on Human Rights, which operates independently of the EU, in 1951, and it came into force (iirc) in the UK in 1953 - and we will still be bound by that treaty obligation in the event of a leave vote. At this time, what became the EU was still the European Coal and Steel Community- it's a rewriting of history that says it was all about peace in Europe: the prolonged period of peace and stability on our continent has everything to do with NATO, however, as PP have explained.

If you're worried about workers' rights (and again, this was something that was brought into British law before - and independently of - European directives) have a look here and here for two Left-wing, trade unionist pages on why membership has eroded worker's rights in this country.

This is probably the most important vote in the last hundred years: it has the possibility of having a real impact on our children's and grandchildren futures in the way the democratic process rarely does.

I admit that, like PP, I have qualifications in European law, and have also worked for the EC, so am probably more invested in this than many people in the country - but at the same time, having also taught on the topics of European integration and European history, and coming from a background of economics, I also probably have a deeper knowledge of the various nuances of the debate than many people in the country.

Alisvolatpropiis - true - but it was an acknowledgement of "rights" of some sort and at the time was significant.

Human Rights are also misunderstood - but that is not an argument for this thread. Generally what people are talking about are political rights which are "negotiated" as part of a deal. There is no reason to think that they will disappear. We were at least on a par with European neighbours in terms of rights and freedoms before we joined and will more than likely remain so whether we stay or leave. What will affect them is a shift in power: a war, civil strife, economic or political crisis. That could happen whether we are in or out.

Does anyone else think other countries might vote to leave if we do?

Britain joined the EU in 1973, along with Denmark and Ireland. That'll be a good 19 years before 1992.

Wrong.
The UK (not Britain, that's a different thing) voted to join the EEC in 1973. The EEC was a Free Trade agreement, not an ever-closer-union. The EU didn't exist until 1992, after the Maasstricht Treaty. I didn't vote for Masstricht - I wasn't allowed to, it was steamrollered in by the Governing elite.

Look at how the racists are voting....... And do the opposite.

Changing the name does not change the fact that we have been tied with Europe since 1970's. Which is also the last time there was a public vote on the matter. What happened in 1992 was an evolution of a pre-existing system, to say that we joined Europe in 1992 is massively simplistic and suggests that prior to that, the U.K. was merrily off on its own feeling no impact or benefit from the ties with Europe, which is not the case.

For anyone wavering read about TTIP -The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership is a series of trade negotiations being carried out mostly in secret between the EU and US. As a bi-lateral trade agreement, TTIP is about reducing the regulatory barriers to trade for big business, things like food safety law, environmental legislation, banking regulations and the sovereign powers of individual nations. It is, as John Hilary, Executive Director of campaign group War on Want, said: “An assault on European and US societies by transnational corporations.”

If there is a vote to stay we will get TTIP.
Kiss the NHS goodbye and welcome privatisation of schools.
Corporations will rule, Governments finally totally impotent.
Vote to stay, vote for slavery.

I'm voting OUT!!!

hefzi - thank you for the info. Always useful when people who have direct experience post.

I have studied history though and I do tend to bang on about perceived "fairness" and the "social contract". I do see all the forerunners of conflict. Agree about mass youth unemployment - France, Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal are all suffering at the moment. It is getting bad here although much of it is hidden as we increase the length of time youngsters stay in education or live at home not claiming benefits.

The rise of the Right Wing parties - that comes from misery, poverty, a feeling of being pushed out.

I have no idea. I'm quite politically aware, but cannot judge the long term economic repercussions either way!

Changing the name does not change the fact that we have been tied with Europe since 1970's

It wasn't a change of name. It was a fundamental change of concept and purpose. Don't you understand that? I thought that you said that you had studied the EU.

TTIP is one of the main reasons Obama wants us to stay.

I'm voting in. I am immigrant to another EU country where I work and pay into the system. I don't want to become a 3rd country national or an alien which is what I would be considered if it's out.

My Mum, who is fairly racist and moans a lot about immigration to UK is voting out. Ironic as she is moving here to be with me. She will be an immigrant herself.

EEC and EU are different and I think a lot of people who voted to join the EEC believed it was a trade only arrangement and feel betrayed now.

(Many of them will have lived through the WW2, fought for the NHS and the rise of the TUnion movement, fought for women's rights and believed we in the UK were ahead of most of Europe in terms of those things).

Auti Outside of the EU, we will be signed up to the worst version of TTIP you can imagine, because:

1. The Tories are massive fans of it and would have signed already.
2. We will have to strengthen trade with the US and they will make all sorts of demands that the EU as a block is currently resisting.

I'm in. I work in academic science and the impact of Brexit would be devastating, perhaps irrecoverable.

The EU is anti-democratic and TTIP even more so.

All that was fought for during the war will be gone if we vote to stay.

We need to get out.

I will actually have to leave this thread and go to work. I'd much rather be here.

I am pro Europe and would like to see a looser union based on trade and co-operation not control/force/unification.

I would also like to see a discussion free from the implication that anyone voting OUT is a racist.

BlueJug I totally agree with you: I fear it's just a matter of time in Europe. Youth unemployment in Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy is above 20% - in fact, that's one of the reasons we are seeing the migration of educated young people from these countries to the UK: they'd rather have a NMW job here than be unemployed at home.

I think people often assume voting to stay in is the same as voting for the status quo. It's not - the EU has already said that the solution to the problems the union is facing (economic catastrophe in parts of the Eurozone, high rates of unemployment, the suspension of Schengen in many places) is more Europe. They have already said that a vote by the UK to remain is to close the door for Britain's "special status" - which doesn't do us a whole lot of good anyway, you might argue. So if you are voting to remain in, you are voting for less power, in terms of veto etc, over our participation in the EU. That's fine, if you also believe the solution is more Europe.

A PP has said that the economic forecasts from organisations they trust have said things will be bleak for Britain outside. I'd really like to know which organisations they are - because the Treasury, the Bank of England, the IMF (who I've also worked for): all of these have said it will be worse. All of these also said we should join the ERM (look how that worked out) and the Euro, in order to improve our economic situation. The UK has had economic growth over the last 12 consecutive quarters - something that the Eurozone hasn't. The Euro has bascially been propped up and bailed out continually over the last few years, which is the only reason there hasn't been a total break-up of the zone - these measures have, in almost all cases, been carried out in defiance of European laws, European directives, and in some cases, international law as well: the fact that the Eurozone still exists is down to illegal financial practices. Not shady ones, not ones conducted in grey areas - full on illegal practice. If you get irate about the last crash, and blame bankers and their lack of regulation/poor practice/speculation etc, you should be a whole lot more annoyed by full on illegality.

In the event of an out vote, of course there will be a short-term financial shock: markets tend to be quite conservative, and there will be a period of uncertainty. However, the fact that we are currently experiencing growth, and the fact that British banks have recapitalised (our European partners haven't recapitalised there - they are in a very, very bad situation when the next financial crisis comes if they don't remedy this) means will withstand this. Sterling will devalue for a while, which will be great for British exports and less great for holidaymakers/those who rely in imports in any way - and then it will settle down: in all likelihood in a matter of weeks rather than months. I don't gamble, but I would place money on it being resolved by the end of that quarter, and that the same quarter would still show economic growth.

And someone asked about other countries: Finland is already indicated that it will pursue a customs' union with the other Scandinavian countries, whilst Denmark and Sweden have said that a British decision to leave will cause them to consider re-evaluating their relationship with the EU also.

The bottom line - despite the pursuance of a Common Foreign and Security Policy (because all our national interests are the same - that's worked well so far in the Former Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Libya...) and the creation of a European army - is that "wider and deeper" union is already fractured. The Euro is crumbling, Schengen is crumbling- it really is only a matter of time for the EU: history shows us that (cf Congress of Europe, for example). We have the choice of taking ownership of our decision to leave, and managing the process so it has as little negative effect on our nation as possible - or being part of the prolonged break up process, with no control over what happens to us, our economy and our country. I know which option I prefer.

Look at who wants us out: Farage, Gove, Boris, Galloway, Katie Fucking Hopkins.

Vote Remain.