To be 100% confused how to vote

[Yellowsun11]

Regarding Europe - Iv looked on line and for the first time tempted not to vote as I really don't know how to vote .

Do your research on the Internet, news, books and listen to other people's opinions. I would also steer clear of any propaganda material from either side, that isn't very helpful as it can taint your choice.

Not voting is worse than voting tactically (that was the problem with the GE 2015).

In the whole Europe debate there is something that not many people - except for a very small group of political nerds seems to know. It has received virtually no mention at all.

Have a look at these two links to find out just what it is.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/1356047/Euro-federalists-financed-by-US-spy-chiefs.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/27/the-european-union-always-was-a-cia-project-as-brexiteers-discov/

I'm not a fan of Ambrose Pritchard's politics, but he seems to be the only person in the mainstream media who will talk or write about this.

Happens in the UK as well. We Welsh can't do much about laws passed in the HOC that affect us. Been that way for centuries.

What exactly does that have to do with the EU? Either it's OK for the UK to have no say in EU law - in which case it's ok for Wales to have no say in UK laws, or it isn't, in which case we need to leave the EU and extend Welsh devolution (fine with me). You seem to be saying "England shafted us so it's ok for the EU to shaft the UK" - bit of an odd argument.

I was a remain voter but now I am fluctuating and looking at how long has the EU got left and the swing to the far right in too many countries. The devil we know seems to be changing with every election and every border that is being erected.

EEC and EU are different and I think a lot of people who voted to join the EEC believed it was a trade only arrangement and feel betrayed now.

^This. I've heard this said many times by those of my parents' generation. I'd be very interested to know (although it's impossible obviously) how that vote would have gone if those who voted then knew how the EU would turn out and how that would have impacted on Britain.

In or out? Not sure. I have European relatives and relatives who now live in other European countries - and the "out" vote would impact them. If that wasn't then I would be voting to leave. I am massively concerned that an "out" vote will trigger another Independence referendum and the horrendous vitriol that came with it.

I would advise for this referendum to only vote out if you are sure because there is

1. a high risk of economic disaster

and

2. leaving does not mean we could (or actually would) stop immigration

Cuitlacoya interesting, very interesting!

*there is

1. a high risk of economic disaster *

No there isn't

Not only that but the Uk have managed to negotiate various things that the rest of Europe doesn't get - the 48 hour opt out on weekly hours, for example. Special circumstances for our junior doctors when the EU deemed the 100 hour weeks they were working unsafe
Poland, Ireland and Denmark have various opt outs - so not the UK alone.
Our opt-out of the social chapter ended in 1997.

The French have a typically French workaround for the working hours directives called RTT which means they can work longer weeks with time off in lieu later.

Vote remain.

No one can possibly back up a statement like "there is a high risk of economic disaster" it's meaningless rhetoric.

There are risks associated with remaining or leaving - that's about all we know for sure. The EU didn't save us from the last economic disaster - so being in doesn't guarantee economic safety or certainty, neither does leaving.

Your desire to remain may cause you to believe there is a risk of "disaster" - but whether it's true is unknowable - just like we can't know what would have happened if we'd never had Mrs Thatcher for example.

Vote leave

Turkey are due to join with full rights. Think about immigration, culture, women's rights and it's neighbours

I've been undecided for a while but I am going to vote "leave". Ultimately (for me) it comes down to UK sovereignty and democracy, which unfortunately the EU lacks.

You can't just twist things around because you want to.
Ironically, that is exactly what you're doing.

You're entitled to believe there will be a disaster - you're not entitled to go around "warning" people about it as if it's fact - because it isn't; it's just one possible outcome.

Poland, Ireland and Denmark have various opt outs - so not the UK alone

Proving my point that the EU isn't forcing laws on us that we don't want. There is flexibility. Thank you.

What exactly does that have to do with the EU? Either it's OK for the UK to have no say in EU law - in which case it's ok for Wales to have no say in UK laws, or it isn't, in which case we need to leave the EU and extend Welsh devolution (fine with me). You seem to be saying "England shafted us so it's ok for the EU to shaft the UK" - bit of an odd argument.

The point is that one of the biggest arguments hat I'm hearing from the "leave" campaign is that the UK's voice isn't loud enough in Europe. But those shouting the loudest about that don't even realise they've been doing just that within the UK!

We, as part if EU, have sent military personnel to war. End of. Our soldiers have died in wars. How is that possible if there has been no war? Europe has been at war. Lets no lie. Let's not confuse it with semantics.

When? We have sent troops to war as part of NATO, which is a totally different treaty organisation, and we have done it under the auspices of the UN, with NATO sorting the military end. The EU does not have the capacity to send troops to war, as defence is thankfully, a national capability.

Hovercraft, you're right that it should necessarily affect how people vote in this election - as long as they understand that the whole point of the EU project is to create a federalist system of government here in Europe that can permanently bind the EU ad US into a single geo-strategic partnership. This is why the US, IMF, World Bank etc all want the UK to remain. Some people will be quite happy with that and fair play to them. Others however may not realise that this is the objective and may not agree with this.

I can understand the US point of view, after all they lost thousands of lives in two European Wars inside one generation.

I have been told though that this is why Dr David Owen - a Lib Dem, the most Euro-friendly of the three main parties, changed from being pro EU to pro Brexit.

The important thing is that people understand what they are voting for - uninformed choices are not real choices. At the end of the day, you takes your pick and you makes your choice.

Can I ask a question? What would be the problem of reinstating the internal borders in the Schengen area? It strikes me that it could be a good thing for safety, but then politicians speak about losing passport free travel as if it would be catastrophic. Am I missing something?

What would be the problem of reinstating the internal borders in the Schengen area?

Purely anecdotally from my road and rail travels in Europe, it would be a massive faff - time and expense. Imagine taking a trip across continental europe where you have to stop and have a passport check at each border - we used to do it, but it adds time (for us) and expense (for taxpayers). I also know people who live in one country and work in another - they only have a short commute but it would be a pain in the arse having to stop and show their passport at least twice a day.