To be 100% confused how to vote

[Yellowsun11]

Regarding Europe - Iv looked on line and for the first time tempted not to vote as I really don't know how to vote .

Maid why do you think that? (I have a DB who is also an academic scientist) Even though we would, theoretically, lose access to things like Horizon 2020, research funding was provided through taxes and government spending before we joined the EEC - I think it's fair to assume that this will continue, in the same way farm subsidies will, from the (very conservative - this figure takes account of things like research grants and rebates etc) £8.8 billion a year we will not be contributing to the EU.

If it's about free movement of people, again, this existed before and independently of Maastricht, or even the EEC - why would that not continue, in an alternative form, in the event of a leave vote?

EastMidsMummy you'd base your vote on who is voting the other way ? Really? Kate Hooey and Frank Field are leaves: it's really not a party political issue, though some parties (SNP and, to an extent, the Labour party - look at Corbyn's flip-flop) have attempted to make it so.

Still, your vote, your choice - that's what's so wonderful about democracy

Vote to stay in. Listen to John Major's speech which was on Radio 4 today about 8.10am on iplayer. It says everything anyone needs to know.

In the event of an out vote, of course there will be a short-term financial shock

I have a bee in my bonnet about this term 'shock'. It is a fairly neutral term but the Inners are trying to portray this commentary as saying that shock is a bad thing. But isn't that what a defibrillator does: it delivers a shock to a dead or misfiring heart to restore it to proper rhythm.
I'm not sure that a shock would be such a bad thing, it could revitalise and reinvigorate us. Better than sleepwalking hand-in-hand with the rest of the EU into the inevitable meltdown, like Remain want.

John Major's talk didn't say anything. It was pure waffle. He mentioned that we trade more with the EU than we do with the Commonwealth but failed to mention that it was because the EEC forced us to drop our old connections! He said that 'we gain more than we give' but gave no facts to back this up. Pure waffle.

Interesting that it came after a news item about us doing bi-lateral talks with Cuba, and trying to get in there before the Americans.

being on the same side as Gove, IDS, Boris and Chris Grayling is NOT something I'm prepared to contemplate

Well yes of course, Cameron, Osborne, Blair and Goldman Sachs make for much better bedfellows...

I'm almost certainly voting Out. I've given this a great deal of thought - it's not a decision to take lightly. The multinationals and the elites undoubtedly benefit from being in the EU (indeed I benefit from it myself) but the average person would probably be better off out. Remaining in the EU will hasten the dismantling of the NHS and the benefit system as we know it.

I think in is better for "them" but not for the general population

I totally disagree.

Those who think that the EU will roll over and let us dictate the terms of our leaving are arrogant at worst and naive at best. We need them more than they need us. They can put up trade barriers, stop us working in the EU and introduce visa requirements. It's no good saying "we'll be like Norway" because it won't be like that.

And if we vote to leave it will also lead to the break-up of the UK.

I live now, I want holidays now, and a nice lifestyle now. I want to keep my employment rights. I don't want to wait 20 years after a brexit and breakup of the union for things to settle down. I might be dead by then.

I cannot think of a single advantage of leaving, other than getting stamps in my passport again.

Out. I don't want ever closer union. I don't want our self governance and sovereignty gradually eroded until there is none left. I also don't want to be a part of the EU at the point at which the whole thing implodes and every country scurries off and things really go wrong.

In the short term an exit will be hard. It won't be easy. Things will be tough. It's like leaving any relationship, the short term pain is worth the long term gain.

Vote to Remain.

You're welcome.

read more about it and decide when you feel that you have enough information to make a choice

Solobo is spot on

DailyHeil EU trading figures says you're wrong about who needs whom in terms of EU trade.

And as we have considerably more EU nationals living and working in the UK (and providing remittances, in some cases, that boost the economies in their countries of origin) than UK citizens living and/or working in EU member states, do you honestly think that there is going to be an issue with visas/work permits etc? Before we were a Union, and when we were just an Economic Community, that wasn't the case - and it also wasn't the case before we were even a part of the party: so to suggest otherwise really is to ignore history, ignore precedent, and ignore common sense (as it's not in EU member states' interests, never mind ours). And apart from their sovereign wealth fund, I wouldn't want to be like Norway anyway (and I say that as someone who has lived and worked there).

As for the break up of the UK- I am sure I'm not the only one who is totally fascinated by SNP assertions that it's undemocratic to be ruled by London whilst at the same time being happy to surrender their sovereignty and democracy to Brussels I can only assume it's because of the money they get (that the UK has put in) back from the EU: in which case they, not to mention NI and Wales, would be foolish in the extreme if they imagine that central government won't at least replace that with the (conservative estimates, not Vote Leave ones - from BBC and Independent) £23 million a day/£280 million per week they will be saving from paying into the EU budget - never mind the potential to actually increase this?

I think Parrots has it spot on in terms of where the benefits and disadvantages lie: and like purits I don't think "shock" is necessarily a bad thing. Of course, big business and multi-nationals love the EU and want to stay - they benefit from savings because of the economies of scale. It has a much harsher impact on SMEs - which are the majority of businesses in the UK.

Like magrat I agree short-term, things will be difficult: that's inevitable. But not as difficult as the alternative - and, like I said in a PP, only for a short period. But at the end of the day, freedom, sovereignty and democracy are the most important things in my personal opinion: which is how I made my choice.

YANBU

I feel the same.

Martin Lewis did a great piece about it on the news yesterday.
Long and the short no one KNOWS what will happen if we stay or go, it is all guesses. If a politician is telling you YOU WILL BE POORER IF WE STAY/GO they are lying. THEY DONT KNOW.
So you have to try and think if you think the short term pain will be worth a long term gain of leaving or you think we are better to be in.

I'm not a Tory, but....

John Major on Today this morning was articulate and impressive.

Best speech I've heard in the subject.

Vote Remain.

*on

I'm also not a Tory - Major has flippin cheek for those of us who remember his tenure. 16% interest rates (I'd just got my first mortgage at less than half that rate) overnight because of his stewardship of the economy, and his judgement that we should join the ERM.

Like everyone else, he doesn't have a clue what the future holds and he chooses only to quote statistics that suit him. He had no answer to John Humpries' (correct) contention that the UK has opposed 72 measures in the EU Council which have gone on to become law - because there is no answer.

I don't know where anyone thinks he has any credibility from - he's just another discredited former PM full of redundant rhetoric.

Look at who wants us out: Farage, Gove, Boris, Galloway, Katie Fucking Hopkins.

Vote Remain.
This is foolish - I could cite the remainers -
Blair, Mandelson, Osbourne, Jeremy Fucking Hunt, Jeremy Clarkson.

Martin Lewis is right.

No-one can know - even eminent economists and researchers have been 100% wrong (quite often) so all bets on the "costs" are off.

What is certain is that the UK has not managed to block a single proposal placed in front of the EU Council from becoming law - 72-nil so far as John Humprhries pointed out to nasty Mr Major this morning.

It is eroding our democracy. It has dubious finances.

I'm with hefzi all the way. She's nailed it.

^
I live now, I want holidays now, and a nice lifestyle now. I want to keep my employment rights. I don't want to wait 20 years after a brexit and breakup of the union for things to settle down. I might be dead by then. ^

It's not about You. Or anyone else really. It's about the future, our childrens future and their childrens futures.

I will not give my childrens future up so willingly. I do not want to be part of a United undemocratic, unelected Europe. Too many people in my family died in wars to be free and so many here are happy to throw their sacrifices away. So sad! Two fingers to those who died for your freedom.

On another note...
Just because Europe fight their wars on non european soil doesn't mean they are not at war. Talk about bullshit baffles brains. We, as part if EU, have sent military personnel to war. End of. Our soldiers have died in wars. How is that possible if there has been no war? Europe has been at war. Lets no lie. Let's not confuse it with semantics.

How is it undemocratic or unelected?!

What is certain is that the UK has not managed to block a single proposal placed in front of the EU Council from becoming law

Happens in the UK as well. We Welsh can't do much about laws passed in the HOC that affect us. Been that way for centuries.

Not only that but the Uk have managed to negotiate various things that the rest of Europe doesn't get - the 48 hour opt out on weekly hours, for example. Special circumstances for our junior doctors when the EU deemed the 100 hour weeks they were working unsafe. I could go on.